I have some questions on this topic which I'd like those who are expert in this area to explain, please:
1. Which are Korngold's top 5 film scores?
2. How long is each one in its original form, as used in the film for which it was written?
3. Are they ever performed or recorded complete?
4. I assume that there are 'suites' from these scores (rather than mere excerpts) - but did Korngold arrange them,
or did someone else?
5. Is there a film score suite arranged by Korngold that compares, say, to the best of Strauss' tone poems?
Thanks in advance!
It's always a matter of taste, Alan :-)
In my personal opinion (not in order of preference)
1) The Sea Hawk
2) Robin Hood
3) Captain Blood
4) Elizabeth and Essex
5) Another Dawn
Your second question needs a couple of hours of work to respond, sorry. Consider the fact that at that time, films used a lot of music in their soundtracks.
An important aspect: Korngold was not allowed to orchestrate his film scores; that was a special clause included in his contract, so people like Hugo Friedhofer and others were doing this (using his style). He had just to deliver a piano particell - and was eventually allowed to supervise, or to just approve.
Incidentally, also the earlier operettas Korgold was commissioned to orchestrate, were never done completely by him; he was assisted by Julius Bittner, Franz Kopriva and Franz Granichsteadten.
Korngold's film score suites were performed in concert in the 1970s already - and many were recorded/published either in the form of suites or completely (new recordings or original soundtracks).
Thre are splendid compliations of suites, the most famous - and best conducted - of which are the two LPs/CDs anthologies done in the 1970s by Charles Gerhard for RCA. Later on, Bill Stromberg did 3 CDs and a complete Robin Hood for Marc Polo (the first one was on Varese Sarabande, conducted by Varujan Kojian).
In 2002 Andre Previn recorded 4 film music suites for DGG - splendid!
On Varese we have new complete recordings of Kings Row, The Sea Hawk, Elizabeth and Essex and Anthony Adverse. On cpo there is a complete recording of Korngold's arrangement of Mendessohn's A Midsummer's Night Dream film score, as conducted by Gerd Albrecht.
Ther is also a complete recording (OST) of Korngold's Wagner biography film score Magic Fire on Varese.
One can also find more complete original soundtracks on doubtful or private labels: Juarez, the Prince and the Pauper and Anthony Adverse.
I don't think Korngold extracted suites himself. My knowledges are not as deep as that.
Your 5th question: I refuse to compare film score (incidental music) suites to symphonic poems of Strauss.
Korngold's Violin Concerto is based on themes from 4 different film scores.
All the recordings I am speaking of are in my collection.
Thanks, Adriano. Good of you to reply so fully. My questions were prompted (a) out of ignorance and (b) because what I'm really looking for are suites made by Korngold himself. I think my problem overall is knowing how much of this music is actually by Korngold and how much is by other hands, whether as regards orchestration or re-composition/arrangement.
I know this is film music, but it does seem very odd to talk about the quality of music which might not actually have written by Korngold himself...
The film music was certainly written by Korngold, but not orchestrated by him - but, still, orchestrated by Korngold experts. This, just to clarify, refers already to the original soundtracks, not to the eventual suites. Most of classic Hollwood scores were not orchestrated by its composers. Bernard Herrmann insisted in doing his own orchestrations, but for that reason he was getting less opportunities, since he needed a longer time for his work. Very rarely composers were given rushes or finished epiodes to work on while a film was still in production. Music always came at the very last minute, once the film was finished - a soundtrack had to be delivered within about 2 weeks, even "Gone with the Wind", whose 4 hour's lenght was the work of over a dozen orchestrators/arrangers.
A pity that many original film score manuscripts have been destroyed after use. Only particell scores were kepk for copyright reasons. For various mentioned recordings, these scores had to be reconstructed by specialists. Honegger's "Les Misérables" has also an important missing sequence which I had to reconstruct by ear - there was not even a particell around.
A recommendation: Last year Dutton has re-issued the famous (and splendid) CD "Citizen Kane, the Classic Film Scores by Bernard Herrmann" - in a super re-mastering by Michael J. Dutton. Those Gerhardt RCA recordings of the 1970s were already famous LPs for their super sound balance and the splendid National Philharmonic. Other LPs of this series were dedicated to scores by Max Steiner, Franz Waxman, Dimitri Tiomkin and David Raksin (I have a copy with Raksin's personal dedication to me, since he admired my Marco Polo recordings).
Korngold's Cello Concerto is a similar "arrangement" of a film score (from"Deception") as Bernard Herrmann's "Concerto Macabre" for Piano and Orchestra (from "Hangover Square") - or Arthur Benjamin's "Warszaw Concerto" (from "Dangerous Moonlight") - or Bliss's "Baraza" (from "Men of Two Worlds") and others... They are works which appear as original compositions in the films, in which the soloists are protagonists; they were not arranged as such later.
Here a link to some videos etc.:
http://thompsonian.info/korngold.html
Very kind of you to answer so fully. Thank you so much.
Quote from: hadrianus on Wednesday 14 August 2019, 17:07
On Varese we have new complete recordings of Kings Row, The Sea Hawk, Elizabeth and Essex and Anthony Adverse. On cpo there is a complete recording of Korngold's arrangement of Mendessohn's A Midsummer's Night Dream film score, as conducted by Gerd Albrecht.
Ther is also a complete recording (OST) of Korngold's Wagner biography film score Magic Fire on Varese.
One can also find more complete original soundtracks on doubtful or private labels: Juarez, the Prince and the Pauper and Anthony Adverse.
There's also the complete re-recording of The Prince and the Pauper on Tribute.
Incidentally as far as orchestrating goes, as said it's the standard practice (this is true in Broadway too). The best composers give enough info that really the orchestrators are more like copyists, simply fleshing out the already orchestrated short score into a full score. Obviously Korngold was a fine orchestrator as judging by his non-film work. He didn't 'need' one, but it was required to do the job. And one would notice his film scores still sound basically like his non-film music -- his orchestrational voice is still there.
There are a number of slight errors in the various reponses here - please allow me to set the record straight.
Korngold was not "forbidden" to orchestrate his film scores. he had to use orchestrators due to the sheer time constraints of producing music for an 80 piece symphony orchestration lasting over an hour within a matter of 7 weeks or less! However, he used his preferred orchestrator Hugo Friedhofer who spoke fluent German and with whom Korngold felt musically 'simpatico'....
The process was not as simple as Korngold producing a piano score and handing it over. Each sequence was a collaboration. Friedhofer would visit Korngold at his home in the evening, and sit by the composer as he played through (on the piano) the music to be orchestrated, with Korngold calling out what instruments should be used, given solos etc while Friedhofer scribbled notes as he played.
Then Friedhofer would go home and write the full orchestration, a copyist (or copyists) would pick up his score at about midnight and then spend the next 6-7 hours writing out all the parts before delivering them to the scoring stage at 9.00am before recording began! This procedure was told to me by those involved in the 1930s.
Later, on the scoring stage, Korngold woul make many emendations as he saw fit, following the initial read-through of each cue. The original scores preserved at the University of Southern California are full of his pencilled corrections and changes.
In this way, though he did not orchestrate his scores personally, they always came out sounding like Korngold.
As for suites, Korngold prepsred his own short suites for the following an performed/conducted them:-
The Adventures of Robin Hood
Juarez
The Private Lives of Elisabeth & Essex
The Constant Nymph
These woud not compare to a Strauss tone poem as they were not intended as such. That for Robin Hood is performed and recorded often.
The Cello concerto was not an arrangment of the score to DECEPTION but an original composition that featured within that film and which Korngold expanded for concert use published as his Opus 37 in 1950.
The Top 5? I suspect most would agree the following:
The Adventures of Robin Hood
The Sea Hawk
Kings Row
The Private Lives of Elisabeth & Essex
Anthony Adverse
The length of each score varies but (from memory) the longest are Sea Hawk (106 minutes) and Adverse (121 minuutes -- out of a running time of 140).
There are plans for a critical edition of these scores because they were composed in such a way that they coould be performed complete rather than as a suite. The best recorded example is KINGS ROW (conducted by Charles Gerhardt from the original scores and released on Varese Sarabande) which one critic reviewed as a "20th century Heldenleben...". Gerhardt did no arranging - he just conducted the music in sequence.
I hope this answers all your questions.
Slightly off-topic, but one thing that always intrigued me about the question of Korngold's film music orchestration and the kind of short/particlell scores that I assume he made for this:
I once read somewhere that the sketches of Korngold's 2d symphony are near to unreadable (and all the more uncompleteable) because of Korngold using some kind of "shorthand", i.e. abreviated writing that no one besides him was able to read. I always wondered whether his sort of particell scores for the film music have anything in common with this reported "shorthand" Korngold used in these sketches? After all, if he had developed this kind of "shorthand" during his Hollywood years, it would sound logical to me that he would have used it afterwards as well.
Does anyone know anything about this?
As for the film scores, I like »Robin Hood« the best as well. Exceptionally complex music for a film score, I think (if of course not the only film music of that complexity). There is a elongated version of the suite, called »symphonic portrait«, available from Schott, arranged by John Mauceri. It seems to simply include an additional number »IV Poor People Feast. The Gallows«. There is a perusal score for those interested: https://de.schott-music.com/shop/pdfviewer/index/readfile/?idx=MTM1NjU0&idy=135654
I like this idea to create longer suites from the film music, as I think that there is more to the film scores than what is represented in the suites. I enjoy the recording of the entire music from Robin Hood a lot.
I, personally, do not think that it is reasonable to compare suites of any kind to symphonic poems (How much would I love Robin Hood reworked into a symphonic poem!)
Best wishes
ewk
To answer EWk about Korngold's sketches:
I have examined the sketches for Korngold's 2nd symphony and indeed have a lasercopy of the extant material in my archive.
The problems with the material are numerous for anyone hoping to create an orchestral performing edition and include:
1. No indication of instrumentation is indicated anywhere.
2. Korngold often does not complete sections and writes a squiggly line or the term 'etc' whch presumably only he would know the meaning.
3. Key signatures are sometimes not given
4. The score is arranged on 3 staves and sometimes only the first bar of each group of 4 contains the fully indicated harmony.
5. The pages are not numbered
6. Some sections are missing
When I worked on the 2001 TV documentary about Korngold for ARTE entitled "Between Two Worlds - The Advetures of a Wunderkind" I prepared a legible and performable piano score from the opening of the 1st movement which is the most complete, and it is this that you can hear in part during that programme if you at least wish to hear Korngold's striking musical ideas for this work.
The FILM SCORE manuscripts (now in the Library of Congress) are a different matter entirely and do not qualify as "sketches" but as piano short scores intended as the primary source for the orchestrator.
These short scores are much more legible and detailed, and frequently have instrumental indications (eg harp gliss, violin solo, forte piano chord, celeste, etc).
Even today, a good orchestrator could work from these scores to create a fully realised orchestration in the Korngold manner.
So the answer is that Korngold did not use his private musical shorthand when creating his film scores.
I hope this answers your question.
Thank you very much, this indeed answers my question!
I'll have look for that Arte documentary then...
Best wishes! Ewk
Sorry for not having been able to response more professionally with my postings... Next time I better remain silent.
That's the very last thing any of us want, Adriano.
Just remember this, Adriano: your expertise is an essential component of this website! So: keep posting!
Hear, hear! Your expertise is invaluable, Adriano.
"Sorry for not having been able to response more professionally with my postings... Next time I better remain silent."
Why do you say that ? Your response was as interesting and valuable as that of Brendan Carroll or others. I learned so many things about Korngold (whom I love !) in this thread !!!
Of course, your knowledge about "rare music" and forgotten composers, as attested by your many recordings (many of them I own !) is so valuable, even indispensable to this forum !
As Ebubu says, both your response and Mr Carroll's were immensely interesting and informative. I read them as complementary, Mr Carroll's merely qualifying and adding to yours, Adriano.
May I add two things to my earlier posts:
By adding some further information and correcting some slight errors, I did not intend to insult or slight any other member here or discourage them from posting. Far from it.
Secondly, if anyone (especially member ewk) would like to see what the sketches of Korngold's unfinished 2nd symphony actually look like, I reproduced the first page of these sketches on Page 361 of my biography of the composer, entitled "The Last Prodigy" published 1997 (Amadeus Press).
@brendangcarroll
Don't worry, Brendan. My reaction is a typical one for an over-sensitive old guy full of complexes :-)
And thanks to all other members encouraging me (Mark, Alan, Gareth, Ebubu)!
As a matter of interest, does anyone have an opinion of John Williams as a film music composer in comparison to the Hollywood greats (Korngold, Waxman, Rózsa, Steiner, Newman, etc.). I think he's a genius...
Well, I think I enjoyed his music more the less I knew the music he was almost-quoting (years ago). (It's one thing to be influenced by other composers, it's another to sometimes sound like a pastiche-cloth of various of their specific works and styles - not always movie (Hollywood or otherwise!) composers, sometimes- as I'm hardly the first to notice - Holst and Mahler eg as well.)
QuoteAs a matter of interest, does anyone have an opinion of John Williams as a film music composer in comparison to the Hollywood greats...
Well, I utterly detest John Williams' music. It sounds to me as if he has one piece of music in his head and all his scores are variations upon it. When it's played on the radio (which is often) I cannot tell which film it was written for, and after two or three minutes I'm bored witless and screaming out for REAL film music (i.e. one of the Hollywood greats). I am obviously in a minority in this regard, but that's not unusual!
Thank you, everyone, for the fascinating material in this thread. I thought I knew a little about Korngold - but now I realise it was little indeed! ;D
Right. Back to Korngold, then.
For those who first got to know the superb film music of Erich Wolfgang Korngold through the Classic Fim Scores series conducted by Charles Gerhardt in the 1970s, it appears that these fabulous recordings are being re-released again, this time on the Dutton label.
See:-
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8659830--captain-blood-classic-film-scores-for-errol-flynn
DUTTON has clearly licensed these recordings from RCA and the first to be issued is CAPTAIN BLOOD, released on August 16.
I am not sure if any digital enhancement has been done.
The performances are outstanding and unrivalled by any subsequent recordings IMO.
For information, the new Dutton re-release contains rather more than Captain Blood - and more than just Korngold!
1. Adventures of Don Juan – Suite (Steiner)
The King – Main Title: Don Juan – The Brocade – Don Juan's Serenade – Parade into London – Don Juan and the Queen – Final Scene
2. The Sea Hawk – Suite (Korngold)
The Albatross – The Throne Room of Elizabeth I: Entrance of the Sea Hawks - The Orchid – Panama March – The Duel – Strike for the Shores of Dover AS
3. Captain Blood (Korngold)
Ship in the Night
4. They Died with Their Boots On – Suite (Steiner) JW IM
Morning – The Farewell Before the Battle – Preparation and March – The 7th Cavalry: Garry Owen – The Sioux – The Battle of Little Big Horn – Custer's Last Stand
5. Dodge City – Suite (Steiner)
Warner Bros. Fanfare and Main Title: The Open Prairie – The Iron Horse – Surrett – The Comrades – The Covered Wagon – Grazioso – Abbie and the Children – Wade and Abbie: The Blarney – Abbie's Theme
6. Objective, Burma! (Waxman)
Parachute Drop
7. The Sun also Rises (Friedhofer)
Prologue (Solennelle) – The Lights of Paris
8. The Adventures of Robin Hood – Suite (Korngold)
The Archery Tournament – Escape from the Gallows – Robin and Lady Marian – Coronation Procession
AS THE AMBROSIAN SINGERS
JW: JOHN WILBRAHAM bugle
IM: IAN MACKINTOSH bugle
NATIONAL PHILHARMONIC ORCHESTRA conducted by CHARLES GERHARDT
They've reissued a number of these (five, according to Dutton's website)....a couple people have said they don't differ much if at all from the previous RCA/Sony issues.
This is the only one with Korngold, who has two discs fully dedicated to him and a bit over 2 hours across the entire series.
FWIW.
In addition to the John Mauceri edition of The Sea Hawk, there's also a good arrangement, somewhat shorter, for amateur/school orchestras by Jerry Brubaker. If only some other classic scores, not just Korngold's, would be so readily available. Just this past weekend a cable channel, Turner Classic Movies, ran classic Errol Flynn movies all day and naturally a lot of them were Korngold - what a difference it makes when a great composer writes a fabulous score. The Adventures of Robin Hood, Captain Blood, The Sea Hawk, Elizabeth and Essex...great stuff.
I'll be conducting a Christmas concert this December and finally have the blessing of the sponsors to do some Korngold - his early pantomime score to The Snowman in Zemlinsky's orchestration. Wish I could find a way to get The Sea Hawk on!
For the ballet/pantomime Der Schneemann, see this new thread: http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,7352.msg77591.html#msg77591 (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,7352.msg77591.html#msg77591)
Regarding Der Schneemann, my concert is a benefit-fund raiser for the https://www.chandlersymphony.com/ (https://www.chandlersymphony.com/) in Chandler AZ, USA. Dec. 1st. Will be doing the Introduction and Serenade, and hopefully a waltz. Not the whole score. It will be the orchestra's first time playing anything by Korngold. I'm also conducting a concert with the orchestra in February - as part of a science/tech fair. I'm bored of doing the expected John Williams music - again! - and am trying to convince the sponsors and board that using The Sea Hawk would be ok! It surely influenced Williams.
Thank you Martin for all that information and good luck with your endeavours. Warner Chapell publish a nice suite from SEA HAWK (It was done at the BBC Proms in London conducted by John Wilson a few weeks ago and can be viewed online for about a month via the BBC website).
If you need any help just send me a PM.
Thanks for the support! I'm looking at the Brubaker arrangement for Sea Hawk. Relatively inexpensive and easier then the Wilson.
Regarding the BBC prom concert, is there a chance to watch it outside the UK? As far as I see, only the audio is available.
Or has anyone downloaded it?
If the BBC only sold these recordings, I would easily buy all of the John Wilson stuff!
Gentlemen: please try to keep posts on K's film music separate from those on Der Schneemann. You'll see that I've had to re-allocate the foregoing posts.
Dear Alan, thanks for sorting the threads! I wasn't sure where to post my last post as the threads were so intertwined.
Regarding the multiplicity of suites/arrangements of K's film scores, I have a question: Unless they were officially sanctioned by the composer himself, can they really be said to be purely by Korngold? Wouldn't a purist view be to get as close as possible to the full film score - or to use only arrangements made by Korngold?
In any case who decides which arrangement is better than another?
Regarding Korngold's own arrangements of his film scores, there are only four genuine "suites" arranged by him and these are:
The Adventures of Robin Hood
Juarez
The Private Lives of Elisabeth & Essex
The Constant Nymph
Robin Hood was prepared for concert use in 1938 and published as such. the other three were specially compiled overtures for performance at the world premieres of these films, conducted by Korngold before the film began.
All other suites since were assembled from the original scores either by Charles Gerhardt (superb - not one note of Korngold's was changed) or more recently John Mauceri (Robin Hood) or someone called Patrick Russs (Sea Hawk, Captain Blood, Elisabeth & Essex and Prince & the Pauper) commissioned by Deutsche Grammophon for Andre Previn's very lacklustre CD. Mr Russ made very unmusical cuts, even combining cues that should not have been joined together, and he even split the famous love music from Sea Hawk into two cues separated by other music, thereby ruining Korngold's beautiful melodic line and structure completely. Unfortunately this perverse "arrangement" by Russ is now published by Schott in Germany so it is likely to become the performance norm. John Wilson went back to the old Gerhardt suite for his recent concert in London. There is one other SEA HAWK 'arrangement' that has been recorded a few times and is to be avoided. This is by conductor Stanley Black who decided that Korngold's final cue was not good enough....so he composed his own!
As for who decides about these things, that is a very good question. It seems that 'anything goes' with Korngold's fllm music because Warner-Chappell don't give a damn. just as long as the fees and royalties keep on rolling in (which they do....$$$$$).
QuoteAll other suites since were assembled from the original scores either by Charles Gerhardt (superb - not one note of Korngold's was changed)
But some music must have been omitted - so doesn't omission count as change?
I also have Rumon Gamba's edition of the suite from The Sea Hawk (Chandos) - how does that compare?
Overall, I can't help feeling that we have a mess of competing versions of what Korngold actually wrote. Surely, as I suggested before, the only genuine, i.e. Korngold-only compositions are what he himself actually wrote or arranged...
I think you are being highly pedantic as to what constitutes a suite, Alan. If you desire to hear Korngold's film music WITHOUT anything omitted, then that is not a suite but a recording or performance of the entire score. Only the recordings made by William Stromberg (prepared by John Morgan from the original score materials held in the Warner archive at USC) would qualify and these are not suites per se.
Rumon Gamba's CD was his own personal selection of cues taken from the full score and parts, and arranged to fit onto one CD. The score for SEA HAWK runs 106 minutes if one played through from bar one until the end!
None of the music included in these suites alter what Korngold actually wrote - it is only a question of which cues are left out.
Charles Gerhardt made a wonderful LP on the now defunct Chalfont label (reissued by Varese Sarabande on CD) of a very large chunk of KINGS ROW (48 minutes worth in fact) which works very well indeed as an extended suite and would be ideal in concert as a major item on any programme. It is all Korngold - no other hand has touched the music or added to it in anyway.
QuoteNone of the music included in these suites alter what Korngold actually wrote - it is only a question of which cues are left out.
Of course it does! If I omit a section from a piece of music I've effectively changed what the composer wrote.
I don't think I'm being pedantic in insisting that any shortened version of a full film score, whether involving arrangement, alteration or omission by some other hand, should properly read 'Korngold, arr. A. N. Other' - unless the composer himself did the work. That would certainly make life easier for the poor customer, i.e. me, who is faced with a number of compositions all with same title, but containing different selections of the music involved.
...by the way: are Stromberg's recordings any good?
I am afraid you have missed my point.
A suite, by its very definition, omits a very large amount of music from the original film score. Does that make it somehow invalid or "change what the composer wrote"? Of course it doesn't. A suite can only ever present selctions of the music.
The suites I have indicated, all present Korngold's work exactly as he wrote it, no key changes or alterations to the orchestration or any other changes whatsoever.
Stromberg's recordings are very good indeed and even restore sections that were CUT from the film before release!
I think that the situation here is that when it comes to writing music for films quite often more music is written than is actually used in the final cut. Where a suite is made of the various musical cues, whether by the composer or by some other person, so long as it contains only music written by the composer we can be fairly certain that the composer's overall musical intention is not compromised. But where it is pulled apart, rewritten or added to we are right to be sceptical (and critical). Film scores - and, indeed, all theatrical music - has by its nature to be fluid: quickly altered to suit the director's plan; changed as the circumstances of production and/or post-production demand. So it's essentially much less of a solid structure than concert music - which is why, reprehensibly I suppose, conductors and arrangers sometimes feel they can treat it cavalierly.
I agree totally, Gareth.
Which is why I warned everyone away from the wretched Patrick Russ "suites" used for Andre Previn's CD. Such libertie were taken with the music that frankly, the composer's intentions were ignored and an entirely false impression created.
QuoteA suite, by its very definition, omits a very large amount of music from the original film score. Does that make it somehow invalid or "change what the composer wrote"? Of course it doesn't. A suite can only ever present selctions of the music.
How is one to know whether any particular selection would have been approved by the composer, though?
And how on earth is the non-expert expected to make judgments as to the merits of the various suites/selections on offer?
Take, for example this webpage of search results on The Sea Hawk:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/Search_engines.htm?cx=partner-pub-7131039333392991%3Astvzk0-7fwo&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=korngold+sea+hawk&sa=Search (http://www.musicweb-international.com/Search_engines.htm?cx=partner-pub-7131039333392991%3Astvzk0-7fwo&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=korngold+sea+hawk&sa=Search)
It features:
1. Gamba/Chandos: 76:57
2. Kojian/Varèse Sarabande: 44:28
3. DePreist/Delos: 8:06
4. Gerhardt/RCA: 8:08
5. Previn/DGG: 17:19
In addition, there's Stromberg/Naxos (1hr 54:07)
So you'll forgive me for being confused!
Yeah I don't get the odd thing about suites -- plenty of more traditional classical music has suites made out of it, often by other hands. Just taking a selection of pieces from a larger work and presenting them in sequence isn't actually /altering/ anything. It might be changing the context, but after all film music (and any other incidental music such as that which underscores radio, ballet, theater, etc) is inherently made to be part of a whole rather than an entity in and of itself. While I for one DO enjoy hearing complete music as a whole, there's still nothing wrong about taking out a few of the pieces and putting them into a tighter structure with less downtime.
I personally don't think a simple act of selecting bits from a whole constitutes 'arranging' -- compiling would be a good word for it. Or even 'selected' or whatever. Certainly I would agree that some note should be made but it's hardly such a big deal as you're making it. Think of a film score like a work with many movements (usually called 'cues) and a suite takes a select number of these cues. Each cue will stiill has a distinct beginning and ending, just like movements in a symphony (of which there are obviously exceptions in both cases)
While it's true that The Sea Hawk has a few options of varying length, at the same time I don't think anyone would see the last three on the list and wonder if it's the whole thing, or worry about if the composer made the "suite" selection or not -- the issue of if any of the music is specifically altered (be it in orchestration or even cutting within cues) is a different one and any notation on THAT end should certainly be noted.
I've come to the conclusion that short suites excerpted from complete film scores are not for me: I much prefer something close to the whole thing. Listening to Gamba's selection from The Sea Hawk greatly increases one's appreciation of the scale and achievement of Korngold here. In short, it's magnificent, fully in line with his great predecessors, such as Strauss, Zemlinsky, Schreker. etc.
Surely 'the whole thing' must include what the music was written for - the film. I fail to see how a film score can compare to anything that Strauss (presumably Richard), Zemlinsky or Schreker produced - symphonic poems and film scores are in my view completely different genres.
QuoteSurely 'the whole thing' must include what the music was written for - the film.
That's correct. And I have argued that before myself. But in reality there is no chance of this being done in optimum modern listening/watching conditions unless the score is re-recorded and the film put out on DVD/Blu-ray for home consumption.
As for the quality of the music, that's a matter of opinion. All I'll say at this point is that Korngold's film scores hold my attention far better than his (longer) operas.
It's incidental music, like those famous stage scores by Tchaikovsky, Grieg, Sibelius etc. Ballet music belongs to that category too.
I agree, but I think there's a difference: with incidental music, the stage action, whether drama or dance, has to be made to fit the score - in other words one starts with the music - whereas film music is written to fit the visual action, in other words one starts with what has been filmed.
Korngold saw his film scores as 'operas without singing'.
Quotewith incidental music, the stage action, whether drama or dance, has to be made to fit the score - in other words one starts with the music
I'm sorry, but this is not correct, Alan. That's not how incidental music to a play works. It is almost wholly subservient to the action: the composer is present at rehearsals and works closely with the director throughout, but the music is definitely subservient to the drama. If the director says "we need to lose 30 seconds of music here" or "this bit needs to be longer" it's the composer's job to produce music to fit those cues. Having worked as an actor for over 30 years, I can assure you that this is how it is done.
I understand that, Gareth. But is that the case with incidental music written by a composer who is no longer alive?
I don't know enough about performing traditions in earlier times, but I would have thought that at least in the last 150 years the music would have been subservient to the drama: it is, after all, described as "incidental" music (imagine GBS having his drama dictated to by the length of a piece of incidental music). Certainly in the early 19th century and the 18th century theatrical performances tended to last much longer than today's audiences would put up with, and all sorts of songs, dances, masques and what have you were sometimes shoe-horned into the play - but traditionally in the theatrical hierarchy the composer generally came somewhere below the theatre cat!
What I'm getting at, Gareth, is not what happened in the past, but what happens today with regard to incidental music by a dead composer originally written to accompany staged action.
Actually, my guess is that these days such incidental music is almost never played to accompany the play for which it was written. In other words, it has become mere concert music. The only incidental music written by a dead composer and designed to accompany stage action these days is ballet music.
Oh, I see. Sorry, I misunderstood. I think you are right when you say that such music as was written for a particular stage production is almost never played in context again. And this is as it should be - autres temps, autres moeurs.
Alan, this not necessarily! For example, Marius Petipa supplied to Tchaikovsky schemes, "plots" and lenght of the single ballet pieces he needed, by even indicating tempi and necessary bar numbers (durations). And I am sure also Grieg and Sibelius were instructed by the relative stage directors/producers how long and of what kind his their incidental pieces had to be. The same also applied to various later Stravinsky ballets. In other words, the composer had also to adapt to an already existing outline, no matter if visible on a screen or not, buit the product was "there"
And - just to show the opposite - there are cases in film music history, where music cues were written before the final editing according to (mostly not yet definitely edited) moviola extracts. The final editing of the film was adapted to the "pre-composed" cue's lenght, since the producer/director liked the piece and did not wanted to shorten it. This occurred in various famous cases like "Citizen Kane" and "The Magnificent Ambersons" - or even "All That Money Can Buy" - just to quote some examples concerning Bernard Herrmann.
We already discussed this particular subject years ago in this forum.
Thanks for that insight, Adriano.