Having just acquired it, my nomination would be Harold Shapero's Symphony for Classical Orchestra - a marvellous amalgamation, seemingly, of Stravinskian neo-classical principles with a Beethovenian concept of the symphony. Why it has only received two recordings, by Bernstein and Previn, I cannot imagine.
Any other nominations - or comments on Shapero's Symphony?
Another nomination (although the Shapero is a fine work, this one appeals to me a lot more):
George Frederick Bristow (1825-1898) - Symphony in F# Minor.
Mendelssohnian in its overall feeling, Bristow's Symphony is a lyrical gem.
One more, if I may:
George Frederick (I seem to be stuck on these names today) McKay (1899-1970):
Symphony for Seattle (Evocation Symphony)
This is a brawny work and teeters on the line between romanticism and neo-classicism. It can be found on a Naxos disc which offers two other wonderful, tone poem types from McKay. Greatest? Nope, but quite unsung, worth knowing, and entirely entertaining.
I'm sort of fond of Mrs. Beach's Symphony in e. Also, Henry Hadley's Symphony #2 - The Four Seasons.
That Bristow F-sharp minor symphony has downright incredible first and second movements, and the last two movements are outstanding, which is why it sprang to my mind right away. But I might average out the four movements of Chadwick's #2 to just barely edge it out for the top spot as a total package. Maybe. To me, it's really hard to choose between those two. The sheer tuneful memorability and flawless technical execution of the first movement of the Bristow is kind of hard to beat.
Alas, when you look at the performing repertoire of American symphony orchestras only a handfull of American symphonies get performed each year mostly Ives, Copland, Bernstein, Barber. Check out the statistics at http://www.americanorchestras.org/knowledge_research_and_innovation/orr.html
When it comes to the recorded repertoire the field is much richer - given several choices I nominate: George Whitfield Chadwick: Symphonies 2 or 3, Walter Piston: Symphony No 3, Howard Hanson: Symphony No 6, and Wallingford Reigger: Symphony No 4. Let's hope that Naxos steps up to fill the empty spots in their American Classics series..
"...Mendelssohnian in its overall feeling, Bristow's Symphony is a lyrical gem..."
I'm the last one to rain on Bristow's parade, and certainly all his symphonies feature great tunes, lusty orchestration and a healthy outdoor spirit that strikes me as particularly 19th century American, but these symphonies as Bristow left them have structural issues. Little real development, and lots & lots of repetition--often numbing amounts of the latter. Jarvi has chopped away an acre of underbrush, and it's a good thing: the symphonies 2, 3 and to a lesser extent 4 would be unrevivable (imo) without such editing. For the original state of these pieces, see Karl Kreuger in 2 & 3 (Krueger got more free handed in 4,) and the ms of #1. The Chandos disc is all genuine Bristow, but I think it's best to come clean on one point: old G.F. was no editor. So give Jarvi credit for 'saving' the f# minor for us, although I suspect it is no accident that Jarvi never did more Bristow...
David
PS. Now Horace Nicholl #2...that's a great 19th century American symphony ;)
I can imagine Bristow, Paine, Chadwick or Beach being candidates for nomination as the composer of the best Romantic American symphony, but for me none of them can hold a candle to, say, Copland (3) or Harris (3) overall - or, indeed, as I suggested Shapero's wonderful contribution. Ives, anyone?
I'm out of the running here I think- my favorite American symphony is probably Roger Sessions' 4th.
Though I do like Harris' 7th, Piston's 4th (these two especially as conducted by Ormandy...), Barber's 1st, and quite a few others (Hanson's 3rd, Schuman's 3rd) very much.
There was a time, during the apex of academic serialism, when I knew at least two conductors who liked Shapero's symphony very much but were either unable or unwilling to be seen conducting it. Shapero's later career at Brandeis made a sad footnote to his early works. He deserves champions.
Ives 4 certainly does cosmic very well and is one of the great imaginative achievements among American symphonies.
The Albany recording of Harris 8 and 9 is entitled "The Great American Ninth." David Allen Miller makes a strong case for Harris 9, though the more vivid sonics of the Kuchar/Naxos version may win the day for most listeners.
For sheer originality and brilliance of conception, Gottschalk's 1859 Symphonie romantique (A Night in the Topics) occupies an honored place in American music. It doesn't try to go where Brahms and Berger go, of course.
Beach suffers when played like Mendelssohn (as does some Mendelssohn); her symphony gets short shrift in the Jarvi/Chandos recording, by which it should not be judged.
William Schuman went from strength to strength during the 1940s, his last -- and in my view best -- symphony of that decade being the Sixth. The Ormandy recording (mono) is outstanding. Starting in the 1950s Schuman tended to end fast movements with strident, sometimes bellicose rhythmic repetitions of triads that to my ears sound arbitrarily chosen (though no doubt they weren't). His Ninth symphony from 1968 is oppressive, as befits its subject matter, but I believe it rises (in Ormandy's performance at least) to the very high level of the 1940s works.
Representation of important American symphonies by the generation just before Copland is still spotty at best -- rather like the representation of Bax and Moeran in British catalogs during the early 1960s. Were that not the case, I would recommend Converse's Symphony 3 and Shepherd's Symphony 1 with its foretaste of Copland.
If it has to be a 20th Century work, I'd go for Don Gillis's Star Spangled Symphony. I find Copeland, Harris & Co. much too "advanced" for my tastes. :)
Not to be forgotten are the orchestral works of William Henry Fry. I particularly like his "Santa Claus" symphony, in spite of the kitschy title.
Quote from: chill319 on Sunday 24 October 2010, 05:58
Representation of important American symphonies by the generation just before Copland is still spotty at best -- rather like the representation of Bax and Moeran in British catalogs during the early 1960s. Were that not the case, I would recommend Converse's Symphony 3 and Shepherd's Symphony 1 with its foretaste of Copland.
I don't know if they -are- important, but do the
Pennsylvania Symphony by Cadman (or the Symphony in A "Virginia Symphony" by John Powell) count (actually, I'd have to check if the Cadman is recorded- well, there's a Coates reel-to-reel from the 1940s... which was reissued on Cambria tape in the 1980s... hrm!- maybe Naxos will soon..., and I still agree that representation is spotty... that was a case in point.) Defining generation as 20-odd years, there's the symphonies of Riegger, which used to have a slight foothold on recording. Sigh.
The Cadman symphony was recorded at its premiere -- link provided in another thread. The work follows the general outlines of Bloch's America: An Epic Rhapsody, summoning ancient Injun tomtoms at its opening, and ending with a paean to American industry and optimism. It's a fine, sincerely wrought work, lacking only Bloch's craft, invention, and intensity.
Sessions 9 - and Carter's more recent Symphonia: Sum Fluxæ Pretium Spei; the former pretty much unsung and the latter certainly insufficiently sung (especially as one of its composer's finest achievements)?
I would have to agree with chill319 about William Schuman, although I'd be hard pressed to pick-out just one for special attention.
However, one of the finest symphonies by an American composer - and one of the best symphonies of the late 20th century - is the Symphony No 1 by John Corigliano; it is simply outstanding. Composed as a reaction to the death of one of his close friends from AIDS, the symphony is fraught with pain intense emotions (it might qualify for an earlier topic's 'great tragic symphonies by unsung composers').
Although John Corigliano is not exactly 'unsung', especially in his homeland, I don't believe his First Symphony has gained the currency it deserves.
Tarantella from Symphony No 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHqHleU0l90 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHqHleU0l90).
Quote from: Delicious Manager on Monday 25 October 2010, 10:35
Tarantella from Symphony No 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHqHleU0l90 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHqHleU0l90).
Whatever a work from 1990 is doing up on YouTube we shouldn't be linking to it unless it has permission to be there - does it? All I see is no infringement intended- not permission actually
granted.
Quote from: eschiss1 on Monday 25 October 2010, 11:39
Whatever a work from 1990 is doing up on YouTube we shouldn't be linking to it unless it has permission to be there - does it? All I see is no infringement intended- not permission actually granted.
I agree in principal, Eric, but think of it as 'educational purposes' (which is allowed).
Quote from: Delicious Manager on Monday 25 October 2010, 12:28
Quote from: eschiss1 on Monday 25 October 2010, 11:39
Whatever a work from 1990 is doing up on YouTube we shouldn't be linking to it unless it has permission to be there - does it? All I see is no infringement intended- not permission actually granted.
I agree in principal, Eric, but think of it as 'educational purposes' (which is allowed).
*nod* Knowing the details of the fair use laws has served well sites like Wikipedia no end (and then there's IMSLP which was down for a year after a cease and desist letter was received from Universal Edition) but anyway - I am curious - have heard the first symphony but haven't heard his other (two, to date?) - what are they like?
The Second Symphony is basically a version for small string orchestra of his very fine String Quartet.
First movement http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVBkCV6gAQY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVBkCV6gAQY)
Second movement http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuTCVmVz11k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuTCVmVz11k)
Third movement http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO_gU2829VE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO_gU2829VE)
Fourth movement http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BafAdjXCFnk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BafAdjXCFnk) (I love the fugue in different tempos!)
Fifth movement http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dbL6JLiljM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dbL6JLiljM)
The Third Symphony Circus maximus is for a large, American-style wind orchestra.
First part http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqcvL5S5hTI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqcvL5S5hTI)
Second part http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlunYKwI7KQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlunYKwI7KQ)
Third part http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43UIigaZ0Fs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43UIigaZ0Fs)
Fourth part http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBNIIQ6WnDM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBNIIQ6WnDM)
I would nominate David Diamond's Third Symphony (now on Naxos) - a lovely, inspiriting and warm-hearted work, which should appeal to admirers of Copland, Harris and William Schuman.
Quote from: vandermolen on Thursday 06 January 2011, 22:19
I would nominate David Diamond's Third Symphony (now on Naxos) - a lovely, inspiriting and warm-hearted work, which should appeal to admirers of Copland, Harris and William Schuman.
Hi vandermolen - it's very nice to see you over here from GMG! :)
Quote from: Albion on Thursday 06 January 2011, 22:26
Quote from: vandermolen on Thursday 06 January 2011, 22:19
I would nominate David Diamond's Third Symphony (now on Naxos) - a lovely, inspiriting and warm-hearted work, which should appeal to admirers of Copland, Harris and William Schuman.
Hi vandermolen - it's very nice to see you over here from GMG! :)
Thanks very much Albion! I only discovered this group when looking for new releases in the Russian Northern Flowers CD series. It looks like a very interesting group - but possibly not good for my bank balance! Best wishes, Jeffrey
Quote from: vandermolen on Thursday 06 January 2011, 22:30
It looks like a very interesting group - but possibly not good for my bank balance! Best wishes, Jeffrey
Well, as my dear old Granny used to say "There's no pockets in shrouds"! ;)
Tough to pick a single piece, but my short list would include:
Bristow - Symphony No. 3 in f# minor (1858)
Strong - Symphony No. 2 in g minor (1888)
Hadley - I only have his 2nd and 4th symphonies, but both are very well crafted and enjoyable.
Balapoel
Peter Mennin's Fifth packs quite a punch. A steely,muscular work with a gravely sombre slow movement. The finale is tremendous,but the exterior is,initially,a little grey and forbidding. Yet there is a poetic lyricism to his best music.
The 3rd,6th and 7th are a little tougher to crack. The eighth and ninth even MORE so. I prefer his earlier efforts. I downloaded the 4th & the Piano Concerto recently. I haven't had time to absorb the 4th,yet,but the Piano Concerto is fantastic & quite an exciting find. In fact,to anyone who doesn't know Mennin's work & wants to try him,I would say go for the 5th symphony and the Piano Concerto first. Incidentally,I was suprised to discover that The Piano Concerto is played by,no less than, the great John ogdon!
I mean Ogdon,(calling him 'great',and then using a small 'o'!).
I like Piston too & only this week received the Albany cd of his 5th,7th & 8th symphony. I need to listen to it a bit more,but my initial response was very positive,and I shall listen to it again later. The 8th,like later Mennin or Schuman,is tougher. David Hurwitz,who can be interesting when he's not being annoying,gives a very positive review of the disc.The 3rd has annoyingly been deleted,but is available at a fairly reasonable price s/h,or even less as a download.
Ok,not a symphony,but the deleted RCA Slatkin of the 'Incredible Flautist',(and 6th,etc), is a 'cracker',and should be played much more.( And the dog has a 'proper' bark!)
There's so much more to American music than just Copland,Bernstein,(overated?),Barber or Gershwin!
Regarding Don Gillis. If his chirpy music sets your teeth on edge,his 5th & 6th are suprisingly serious,thoughtful works,allot different from his usual stuff. If you like Hanson but HATE chirpy,cheep,cheep Gillis,try these! They really are a bit of a suprise,coming from such an,at times,infuriatingly upbeat,even dare I say,manic,composer! Quite good actually!
I'm fond of Paul Creston (ok, not his birth name, but neither was Walter Piston, etc. etc. So?...)'s 2nd and 3rd symphonies... not quite unsung though, with a recording history stretching back 60 years. (Even his first symphony had a recording in the 1950s apparently before its CD premiere 50 years or so later, but I've only heard the latter.)
(It's moments like this that I remember Stirling Newberry's admonition that Romantic Music does not mean music that expresses feelings- which means about 99.44% of all music in the tradition most of us are in, much 20th century "modernist" music included - but music associated with the "Romantic" movement in literature, art, drama, etc. - noting the greater commonalities rather than differences here between Schumann and Mendelssohn on the one hand, and Liszt, Raff and Draeseke on the other, in their approaches to Romantic music. Schumann and Liszt, e.g. (Mozart too, but to a much lesser extent- Das Veilchen only comes to mind) took inspiration from Goethe, and associated works with the other arts of their time much moreso... this is why "neo-Romantic" makes so little sense to me. Anyway. Tangent. - Eric)
Re: Creston. Strangely enough,his 1st seemed to make the most impression on me.
Going back to my former post. With respect to Don Gillis. I feel I should have mentioned another 'populist',namely,Morton Gould,who has been described before as a sort of American answer to Malcolm Arnold. Yet,apart from a spectacularly recorded Varese Sarabande Lp,which included a very exciting rendition of his 'Latin American Symphonette',conducted by the composer himself,his music always seems to disappoint.
Some recent cd's have,however,led me to re-evaluate this composer. Maybe the disappointment is in the performances & the choice of works that have been recorded?
Gould's Symphony No 3,a key example. A truly exciting assimilation of popular music & the american symphonic tradition,which really works. Also,the recently released cd from Albany,entitled, 'Interplay',which includes Gould's 'Concerto for Orchestra'.
Quote from: Albion on Thursday 06 January 2011, 22:33
Quote from: vandermolen on Thursday 06 January 2011, 22:30
It looks like a very interesting group - but possibly not good for my bank balance! Best wishes, Jeffrey
Well, as my dear old Granny used to say "There's no pockets in shrouds"! ;)
Your Granny made a good point. :)
With respect to your granny,vandermolen. I remember what my grandad said when I asked him whether there was an afterlife,(I was only a child). His answer did nothing to cheer me up.....something about maggots and boxes. As it turned out he was wrong. He got cremated!
Quote from: Pengelli on Saturday 08 January 2011, 19:07
With respect to your granny,vandermolen. I remember what my grandad said when I asked him whether there was an afterlife,(I was only a child). His answer did nothing to cheer me up.....something about maggots and boxes. As it turned out he was wrong. He got cremated!
Indeed, one of the most important aspects of life is the gaining (and giving) of as much experience, knowledge and pleasure (including acquainting oneself with the output of unsung composers by whatever means presents itself) as one can before the great launch into the abyss/ next world (choose option according to taste).
I'm pretty open minded myself.........I think might live long enough to receive a boxed cd set of the complete 'Cauldron of Annwn' cycle,through my letterbox and a professionally staged performance of 'The Tigers'.
Seriously,I never expected to see/hear this much! (The 'Gothic' at the Proms?!!!).
Rochberg's First is another one I keep meaning to buy. With trepidation!
Also,the Albany cd of Creston's Fourth & Violin Concerto.
Another American composer I find very interesting is George Antheil. His symphonies are fascinating collage like assimilations of all kinds of styles and influences. Somehow they work.
I find his take on jazz far more interesting than Gershwin,who wrote marvellous tunes,but whose music I find strangely superficial (Porgy and Bess excepted).
I would particularly recommend the cpo cd of Antheil's First & Sixth symphonies. Wierd and wonderful!
I wish someone would get round to his opera's. Now,what are THEY like?
And the cpo cd of his Piano Concerto's. By the way,does anyone know what happened to his Second symphony. The cpo cycle didn't include it & neither has Naxos. The cpo notes are minute and written in gobble-de-gook,but according to Wikipedia & a comment on another message board it DOES exist.......!!!???
I'm not an expert on Antheil (or for that matter on anything else!), but I believe the composer himself withdrew the second symphony (composed between 1931-38) and there is no published score available.
What I believe remains of this work is its third movement which becomes resurrected as a short orchestral piece called 'Archipelago', dating from 1933. (I heard it many years ago, and remember it as one of the noisiest bits of music ever I have heard - and thus aren't especially keen to hear it again!)
He was not only 'the bad boy' of music (his own words), but also threw those who compile catalogues into perplexity. There are, for example, two Symphony No. 5's. The first, subtitled 'Tragic' he wrote in 1945-46. But then reconsidered the matter and wrote a second (sometimes referred to as No. 5A) Symphony No. 5 subtitled 'Joyous'. And No. 5 hasn't got much in common with No. 5A.
To complicate things still further there are some works he called 'Symphony', but which by no stretch of the imagination are what you and I would call symphonies. There is, for example, a 'Symphony for Five Instruments' (a bizarre combination of flute, bassoon, trombone, trumpet, viola). And then there are two versions of a 'Jazz Symphony' - 1925 and 1955.
Lost? Not so much as I. Nothing in Antheil is quite what it seems, and I suspect that's one of the reasons (apart from wishing to preserve the ears) I rather gave up on him.
Peter
Thank you for your response. It seemed a bit odd that cpo and Naxos had missed that one out. By the way,any more Antheil haters here? Come on,have you're say,it's a free country!
For those who prefer a more relaxing muse,the Koch 2cd set of Randall Thompson's Symphonies 1-3 is well worth seeking out. If you like Hanson or Creston, Thompson shares the same lush,romantic palette. Bernstein recorded the Second many years ago. (The Hyperion cd of his choral music got allot of praise,recently).
Most naughty of you, Pengelli - I certainly didn't say Antheil is deserving of hate!! On the contrary, there are quite a number of his works I like (especially some of the piano sonatas and the CPO symphonies). But I just can't imagine myself packing his stuff into a crate to take to that desert island.
Someone who hasn't (I think) had a mention here is Benjamin Lees. Have you tried his symphonies? What do you make of them? I consider them real crackers, and the other music of his I've heard (various piano works, the second piano concerto) suggests the hand of a very distinguished composer. He died just a short time ago, and I hope that sad event might trigger some retrospective reminder of his work and that he won't be allowed to fade into obscurity.
Peter
Sorry,that was just tongue in cheek. I was just thinking of some of the bile you used to get on the old R3 Message Board. Robert Simpson in particular used to get some posters positively frothing with venom.
I haven't heard Benjamin Lees,although I know of him. I shall check out some samples.
Thank you for that.
The Antheil Piano Concerto's cd is actually one of the best places to start,for anyone who wants to try him out at his most approachable.
I played him once to my mum and had to turn him off!
I was looking at the thread on Ries Overtures,just now,clicked on the link and lo and behold Cpo are releasing a cd of a George Antheil opera! A bit of a coincidence after my post. Release date,(not in uk), 25/1/11. It's called 'The Brother's', (1959),and it's in one act. Nothing to do with that terrible BBC2 series,incidentally!
Well I DID wonder!
Quote from above post regarding Antheil:
'I wish someone would get round to his opera's. I wonder what THEY'RE like?'
And cpo are releasing one this month!!!!
Let's have another go at this:
'I wish someone would get round to recording Havergal Brian's 'The Tiger's. (Although of course,I do know what it's like!).
Taking inspiration from another thread, I listened again to Korngold's Symphony. Considering all Korngold's years in Hollywood, I should think it might qualify as one of the great _American_ symphonies, as Weill's Street Scene qualifies as one of the great American operas.
If I may diverge from the thread a little, which I feel mildly constraining - if not, I apologize. I don't know if I can think of the greatest unsung American symphony, offhand. I can think of some very, very good ones that may be great, though- most of which are recorded (some only on LP - but still, a contrast with the situation with 'the greatest unsung German, French, British,...') - partially because of the Louisville Orchestra recording enterprise :) - for which many classical fans of a few generations before me, and mine too, are really grateful - and for other reasons... - though some are yet unrecorded too.
There's the two by Bloch's student (and Roger Sessions' friend, though mostly a tonal composer) Quincy Porter (1934, 1962, I think. No. 1 recorded in 1957, no.2 in 1964, both newly - not a reissue - together on CD in 2003 with Ian Hobson and the Sinfonia Varsovia on Albany.) (Unsung but not exactly Romantic in the sense we talk about here, though. Then again- neither are several other composers in this thread, so I shall not take that as too much of a barrier.)
There's an almost completely unknown symphony by Swiss-American composer Ludwig Bonvin (G minor, opus 67). Can't tell you if it's even good- because while it's been published (Breitkopf & Härtel, 1902) the only work of his I've even seen in score is another (op.71, at IMSLP). Canisius College, where he taught, has a lot of his manuscripts, though. I'm intrigued, but...
John Powell (... America's third-rate Wagner? well, no, not as musically interesting, though not lacking interest. but...) wrote a symphony in A 'Virginia' that I have not yet heard but which has been recorded (hopefully, unlike the Sonata Teutonica that so interested Sorabji, uncut.)
I've heard talk in this thread of an American equivalent to Malcolm Arnold. Who would be a British equivalent to our Robert Ward (especially re his 6 symphonies)?
There's a few contributions to the thread, anyway...
-Eric, admirer of the symphonies and other music of Howard Hanson, Walter Piston, Roger Sessions, and Milton Babbitt (among others).
The Powell Symphony is available in the colonies at Amazon; also as an MP3 download for US$8.99.
Jerry
Very interesting ruminations, Eric. Putting the four words "greatest," "unsung," "American," and "symphony" together in a single sentence is definitely throwing down the glove. Of course, the challenge is all in good fun.
I enjoy the sheer variety of American classical music. Historical circumstance has favored eclecticism here. Consider Colin McPhee's two symphonies, always pleasing to the ears (yes, he's Canadian, but that's "American" in my book). Follow them with Wallingford Riegger's second, a personal favorite. Creston's third, Cowell's 11th, Gail Kubik's Symphony Concertante, Bernstein's first, and for dessert the slow movement from Still's fifth. We all have our lists, often long ones.
With this in mind, turning the question sideways, as it were, let me ask, which American composer's *sequence* of symphonies seems a high achievement that also maintains the sort of internal coherence we find in sequences of symphonies by European masters?
I might agree with Alan on the achievement found in Copland's third, and I like three of Copland's four symphonies, but the four are _very_ different children. On the other end of the spectrum, the 13 symphonies of Roy Harris (of which I know only 9) seem, even with oddities like the Folksong Symphony, almost Brucknerian in the tenacity with which the composer has sought (and in my opinion found) artistic growth within well-defined limits.
So how do Hanson, Sessions, Piston, and others fare in the sequence-of-symphonies department? I'd enjoy hearing others' opinions.
Just for the sake of clarity (or not), what qualifies as an "American symphony"?
Must the composer have been born in the U.S?
Must the symphony have been written in the U.S.?
What about a symphony written by a composer born another country who immigrated to the U.S.? What about a symphony written by a composer born another country while visiting the U.S.?
Quote from: Amphissa on Tuesday 18 January 2011, 17:33
What about a symphony written by a composer born another country who immigrated to the U.S.? What about a symphony written by a composer born another country while visiting the U.S.?
Like Hindemith's symphony in Eflat or Britten's Sinfonia da Requiem (if both were written entirely or mainly in 1940- one grants that most composers usually draw at least subconsciously on ideas they've had in their heads for some time, so the beginning dates of compositions are in some sense often decades before their completion dates, and Britten's stay in the US was not
that long... but one still gets my meaning.)?
hmmm ... part of my post got chopped off. What's up with that?
Continuing ....
And, is this all about the UNITED STATES? Canada, Mexico, all the other countries south of the UNITED STATES are "America" as well.
I don't have a long list of spectacularly crafted gems from Costa Rica or anything, but there are composers from other American countries who actually did write some symphonies. Like Villa-Lobos and Carlos Chavez, for example.
8)
Any symphony written by a born-and-bred American, please. Emigrés allowed if interesting, e.g. Korngold. No visitors or brief-stayers, please, so let's leave out Dvorak 9!
Surely "My fellow Americans...", as used by every president, doesn't mean Mexicans, Canadians, etc.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Tuesday 18 January 2011, 18:46
Any symphony written by a born-and-bred American, please. Emigrés allowed if interesting, e.g. Korngold. No visitors or brief-stayers, please, so let's leave out Dvorak 9!
Surely "My fellow Americans...", as used by every president, doesn't mean Mexicans, Canadians, etc.
You obviously fail to appreciate the porousness of U.S. borders. ;D
So pour us a few US symphonists, please! ;D
So I guess, along with Korngold, other U.S. naturalized citizens that would qualify would be composers like Stravinsky, Tcherepnin, Zeisl, Monod, Schoenberg, Hindemith and Rachmaninoff. Can't say there are many unsung symphonies I'd recommend from that list. Rachmaninoff's 3rd doesn't get played much, but he's not unsung.
Technically, 'America' is a perfectly proper name for the United States of America just as Mexico is fior the 'United Mexican States' (etc.). Nothing wrong with the country and continent name being the same.
USA symphonists, please. No immigrants. Moderator slowly losing it... >:(
Okay,here goes. I think the following are some of the 'greatest',(or best?) I've heard:
Roy Harris: Symphonies 2,3,6,7,8 & 9
William Schuman : Symphony No's 3 & 5
Peter Mennin: Symphony No 5,6 & 7
Morton Gould: Symphony No 3
Walter Piston: Symphonies 2,4 & 6
David Diamond: Symphony No's 2,3 & 4
Howard Hanson: Symphonies 2,3 & 6
George Antheil : Symphonies 1 & 6
Grant-Still: Symphony No 1 'Afro-American'
Paul Creston: Symphonies 1 & 2
Such variety,but all we get is Copland,Bernstein,Gershwin & Barber. Not that there's anything wrong with their music of course,(except Bernstein,who my mother always dismisses as a big show off.Which he was!)
The recent recording of Roy Harris's innovative eleventh shows how his music was stil evolving & why some record company like Albany Records should hurry up and record more of his,still unrecorded symphonies. I do quite like some of Don Gillis's music,when I'm in the right mood,and there's no sin in writing happy up beat music,but why Albany should give a complete cycle of Don Gillis's symphonies preference over Harris,beats me!
In fact I think it's absolutely awful that,here we are in the 20th century and there are still no complete cycles of SOME of the above composers.
Note that I didn't mention Naxos in relation to Harris. I thought their recordings of his 3rd,4th,5th and 6th symphonies were extremely disappointing. Performances like that don't help his cause!
Incidentally,with respect to the above posts,Roy Harris had some Welsh blood in him,apparently!
Oh,Hovhaness get's one entry,his First,which is his best! (And believe me I've heard quite a few!).
Thanks. Moderator has now gathered together clumps of torn-out hair. :)
Also (sorry about the punchy posts on this topic) anyone like Pennsylvania composer Richard Yardumian's (1917-1985) 2nd, by the way (hrm, apparently his first symphony was recorded too and by Ormandy- haven't heard it though I think... I'm pretty sure I've heard both his violin concerto and his second symphony...)?
Have heard part of Arnold Rosner's 5th symphony but was quite impressed by it.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Tuesday 18 January 2011, 22:09
USA symphonists, please. No immigrants. Moderator slowly losing it... >:(
Hmm... aren't ALL American symphonists ultimately immigrants (I don't know of a single 'native-American' composer)?
Quote from: Delicious Manager on Wednesday 19 January 2011, 13:41
Hmm... aren't ALL American symphonists ultimately immigrants (I don't know of a single 'native-American' composer)?
Timothy Archambault, perhaps. (see this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Native_American_composers) which covers composers in all genres. Archambault (born 1971) writes and performs contemporary classical. (or Brent Michael Davids (b.1959); George Quincy; perhaps Joseph Renville; Joanne Shenandoah (symphonist, in the 20th/21st century loose sense- doesn't bother me, mind...); Jerod Impichchaachaaha' Tate (born 1968).
Eric
Well, if in ancient days before there were unsung composers to pursue, our distant ancestors happily swung through trees in some remote region of Africa and then discovered the advantages of an upright posture, and started wandering across the plains in the direction of what became Europe, then surely, Delicious Manager, both you and I are immigrants?
Let's help our esteemed moderator keep his hair. Surely the thread is seeking something fairly clear-cut, viz composers who were born in America (or Canada or Mexico) rather than those who arrived in their precocious teens or genteel middle-age? (So Korngold, Schoenberg or even Dvorak [!] are clearly excluded from the category).
Peter
Quote from: petershott@btinternet.com on Wednesday 19 January 2011, 16:09
Well, if in ancient days before there were unsung composers to pursue, our distant ancestors happily swung through trees in some remote region of Africa and then discovered the advantages of an upright posture, and started wandering across the plains in the direction of what became Europe, then surely, Delicious Manager, both you and I are immigrants?
Let's help our esteemed moderator keep his hair. Surely the thread is seeking something fairly clear-cut, viz composers who were born in America (or Canada or Mexico) rather than those who arrived in their precocious teens or genteel middle-age? (So Korngold, Schoenberg or even Dvorak [!] are clearly excluded from the category).
Peter
Very true, of course, I have to admit I was merely being mischievous. Apologies to the moderators for any further challenging of the follicles as a result.
No problem, kind sirs. I see the wig-maker tomorrow...
........as I was saying about Roy Harris!
Quote from: Pengelli on Wednesday 19 January 2011, 21:39
........as I was saying about Roy Harris!
still haven't heard as many of his symphonies as I'd like- meaning to hear syms. 8 and 9, but really enjoy syms. 3, 5 and 7, especially 7 in Ormandy's account.
In relation to the posts above. Any unsung Native American, ('Red Indians' in less pc times),symphonists out there?
If you like Harris's Seventh,his ninth has the same sort of epic feel about it. The eighth is different. It incorporates a piano,a bit like Martinu did,but in a different sort of way. It almost sounds minimalist in places,and like an extended symphonic poem;but it grows on you. I like it. Albany have a superb cd of 8 & 9,and the 'fill up',a short orchestral work in between,is Harris at his most relaxed & playful. His Violin Concerto is fantastic,one of his best and is available on another cd in a very good recording.
I would like to hear the remaining 4 of George Bristow's symphony. I know about recording of the symphony in F# monir Op. 26 of 1858, but I would like to also hear his other symphonies
Sinfonia in E flat Major Op. 10 (1848)
Juilien Sinfonia No. 2 in D Minor Op. 24 (1853-54)
Arcadian Symphonie in E minor Op. 50 (1872)
Niagara Symphony Op. 62 (1893)
I believe that the Juilien Symphony was recorded Was recorded on the Karl Krueger Music in America Series ( I seem to recall coming across it as a teenager in the library). Has any seen this recording or heard of any of recordings/broadcasts of any of the others?
Quote from: oldman on Thursday 20 January 2011, 21:36
Sinfonia in E flat Major Op. 10 (1848)
Juilien Sinfonia No. 2 in D Minor Op. 24 (1853-54)
Arcadian Symphonie in E minor Op. 50 (1872)
Niagara Symphony Op. 62 (1893)
This seems to be the case re sym.2. The Arcadian symphony (no.4 according to some sources, no.5 according to others...??) was also recorded, it seems, also in the same series under the direction of Karl Krueger around 1967 (LP MIA 135) (op.49, not 50, seems to have been given on the LP?... ah. op.49 was the cantata the Pioneers, of which the symphony originally formed the 2nd part. that explains it.) The (5th?6th?) Niagara, symphony may also have been recorded - not sure, though.
The Jullien and the Arcadian Symphonies were most definitely available on LP in very persuasive performances from Royal Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Karl Krueger. I have heard a tape of an execrable amateur performance of No.1 on a tape which was going the rounds a few years ago, but I don't think it was ever commercially recorded. AFAIK the Niagara has not been recorded.
Piston No.2 would be another candidate as far as i am concerned. A wonderful slow movement with some sublime writing framed by an immensely powerful first movement and a whirlwind finale. Marvellous stuff. (And do get the Tilson Thomas recording with the BostonSO on DG!)
I kept letting what I thought Piston's music sounded like overwrite (over-audition?) what performers were actually playing... if that makes any sense at all... thought that he was predictable though enjoyable ... - until I heard some of his late music, first of all the 8th symphony without knowing it was his music at first
(funny how often I gain from tuning into the middle of a piece - what a striking, brooding, what-is-happening-here? piece! who could this possibly be by?... ... wait. Piston? ... pull my other leg, it has bells on...) - then after that, was able to go back to those earlier works with fresher ears. (Still not so much for the 2nd symphony myself but the 4th definitely makes much more of an impression now for example. Likewise the piano quintet whose first movement, the first time I heard it, put me in mind of Faure - the only other 20th century American composer off-hand to remind me of early-20th-century French music of any kind was Creston, in one or two of his orchestral works (Corinthians XIII op.82 of 1963, I think. I only heard part of it, actually, but it made quite an impression... ... anyway.)
The string sextet, which I finally heard on a private tape and then on Naxos after wondering for some time from the score what this might sound like, was a bit of a disappointment compared to the late symphonies and 5th string quartet- just borrowed the new Naxos odd-numbered string quartets recording from the local public library (comparatively we have a pretty good one here- I'm biased and do volunteer there, a caveat :) ) ... ... in any case, was glad, not unusually, to have gone back and reconsidered his output. Haven't heard that recording of the 8th in awhile and don't have a clue if I'd hear the same things in it now as I did then - of course, wouldn't be a bad thing if a good modern performance and recording were made...
Quote from: eschiss1 on Wednesday 19 January 2011, 13:25
Also (sorry about the punchy posts on this topic) anyone like Pennsylvania composer Richard Yardumian's (1917-1985) 2nd, by the way (hrm, apparently his first symphony was recorded too and by Ormandy- haven't heard it though I think... I'm pretty sure I've heard both his violin concerto and his second symphony...)?
Have heard part of Arnold Rosner's 5th symphony but was quite impressed by it.
I have Yardumian's 1st Symphony on LP and will upload it soon :)
There are some Native American composers, but to my knowledge, none has yet published a symphony. Jerod Impichchaachaaha' Tate has composed quite a few works, including a ballet score. Perhaps the best known is Louis W. Ballard, who won many awards and had many of his works performed during his lifetime (1931-2007). His "Incident at Wounded Knee" was a four-movement work that received a lot of attention. But I don't really think anything written by Native American composers qualifies as a symphony by any stretch.
I don't really do well with these "greatest" lists, because I enjoy different works for different reasons at different times. To say one is the greatest and another is not, or even that one is better than another, when I like them all, is difficult for me.
Among the symphonies that I don't think have been mentioned yet in this thread, I'd include for consideration John Vincent Symphony in D, Giannini "Roosevelt Symphony," Bernstein 2 "Jeremiah," Kelley 1, Ives 2, Hovhannes 2 "Magic Mountain," and Beach "Gaelic." Maybe some of these have been mentioned. I haven't gone back through this entire thread in awhile. (It started more than a year ago.)
Are any of these "the greatest" of all American symphonies? Well, I'll let others decide. I just know that there are times I want to listen to one of them and I like them just fine when I do.
Well, Brent Michael Davids calls his "Gathering of Nations" (ca.1999?) his first symphony- haven't heard it yet.
I still consider Harold Shapero's Symphony for Classical Orchestra "unsung" and far and away the greatest American symphony.
I agree about Shapero's Symphony. It badly needs a really good modern performance, though.
QuoteI don't really do well with these "greatest" lists, because I enjoy different works for different reasons at different times. To say one is the greatest and another is not, or even that one is better than another, when I like them all, is difficult for me.
I agree!
I also haven't gone back through the entire thread to check on past nominees, but off the top of my head, I strongly endorse Randall Thompson's 2nd Symphony.
Some runners-up currently on my mind: William Schuman's 8th & Walter Piston's 6th.
I'm glad to see some other votes for Don Gillis. I only own one disc in the Albany cycle (the one with the 5th, I think? Have to check when I get home.), but I recall being most impressed with his music upon first hearing it.
Funny that you should mention Don Gillis. I have just been writing about his music on another forum ;D
To be entirely honest, I find Gillis a pretty feeble composer and, yes, I did collect the entire Albany set ::)
Why on earth Albany considered his music worthy of an integral symphonic set whilst really great American composers like Walter Piston, David Diamond, Peter Mennin, George Rochberg or even Paul Creston have been ignored in that respect is totally beyond my understanding. One can collect all the Piston and Mennin symphonies conducted by different conductors and similarly all the Creston(bar No.6-which can be downloaded from this site) but there is no recording of David Diamond's 11th and final symphony. Naxos appeared to have stalled their Roy Harris series now too :( It was left to a German company-CPO-to record the Antheil.
It really is a tragedy that the greatest of American symphonists should be ignored in this way :( What the USA needs-with the greatest respect-are companies like Chandos, Dutton and Hyperion doing the same job for American music as has been done over the last couple of decades for British music.
Quote from: Dundonnell on Tuesday 13 December 2011, 20:53
It really is a tragedy that the greatest of American symphonists should be ignored in this way :( What the USA needs-with the greatest respect-are companies like Chandos, Dutton and Hyperion doing the same job for American music as has been done over the last couple of decades for British music.
You'll get no argument from me on that count. Honestly, the treatment of American music in general by American record companies (and orchestras, and performing arts organizations, *grumble*) borders on criminal sometimes. It's depressing - there's so much that could, and ought, to be recorded, which is languishing for want of a standard-bearer. I admire the work that Naxos is doing, but it kind of depresses me that it's been left to a foreign company, and foreign orchestras, to begin closing the gap.
Albany
sometimes pulls a surprise out of the hat, but that's about as far as it goes, I fear.
Oh, well. At least now I know what I'll do if ever I win the lottery. ;D
QuoteAlbany sometimes pulls a surprise out of the hat, but that's about as far as it goes, I fear.
I really have to come to Albany Records' defense here. They've done an extraordinary service for American music over the past couple of decades! Sure, they haven't done any complete cycles of Diamond, Harris, Piston, Creston, or Mennin, among other acknowledged "major" American composers, but they have indeed issued individual symphonies by all the above, including several premiere recordings. They've offered beautifully remastered reissues of vintage Columbia material, such as the John Vincent Symphony. I can't think of any other American-based company that has done as much.
Admittedly, proportionately speaking, the British companies mentioned above have probably collectively issued more "unsung" British music. I'm not certain what the reasons are -- better funding, a bigger market, better press, or some combination of the above? I suspect that despite whatever shortcomings there may be in arts education in both countries, there is still a larger percentage of the populace in the UK that has more appreciation for the arts than in the USA. The state of arts education in most USA schools is pathetic!
As to the objections to the Gillis cycle -- granted, Gillis' music is generally "light" (and in some cases very "light" or even "slight"). But it's excellently crafted and worthy of hearing (even if some of it leaves me cold, too). Looking at it from an "unsung" point of view, there has been a lot of interest in Gillis' music over the years. Albany has fulfilled many collector's fantasies, and we no longer anticipate a "what does the rest of Gillis' music sound like?" thread on this forum, do we? Perhaps several years from now we'll have the luxury of hypothetically asking "why did cpo waste their time and money on a Julius Weismann cycle when they could have done a Johann Nepomuk David cycle?"
Ultimately, R&R decisions come down to money. Unless a patron comes forward to underwrite a pet project, Albany and other companies have to decide whether a give project will give them a return on their investment to keep the company going or to fund future projects, or even to just not lose too much money.
Anyway, I firmly believe that Albany has done yeoman service for American composers and as far as I know will continue to do so.
You make some very fair points, Latvian, and I will concede that I was overly-harsh on Albany :)
Snatching at random some of their cds from my shelves I have the Piston 4th, 5th, 7th and 8th symphonies, the Harris 7th, the Persichetti 4th, the Schuman 6th(albeit in reissues of old LPs), and the Harris 2nd, 8th and 9th, the Piston 3rd, the Creston 4th, the Persichetti 3rd, 4th and 7th, the Schuman 4th, the Gould 3rd and the Harbison 3rd in more modern recordings (in most cases with the Albany Symphony Orchestra under David Alan MIller).
That is certainly not a poor output of the music of the great American symphonists :).......but I do get the distinct impression that this type of output has diminished considerably over the last few years. I know that I used to buy Albany cds on a fairly regular basis but have been buying far fewer more recently. Their catalogue contains scores and scores of composers whose names are completely unknown to me. Do these composers sell ??? ??? I don't know.....except they don't sell to me :(
However, I am happy to withdraw part at least of my criticism of the company and give credit to what it has done :)
QuoteThat is certainly not a poor output of the music of the great American symphonists :).......but I do get the distinct impression that this type of output has diminished considerably over the last few years. I know that I used to buy Albany cds on a fairly regular basis but have been buying far fewer more recently. Their catalogue contains scores and scores of composers whose names are completely unknown to me. Do these composers sell ??? ??? I don't know.....except they don't sell to me :(
However, I am happy to withdraw part at least of my criticism of the company and give credit to what it has done :)
I appreciate your respose, Colin! I do agree that they've been releasing fewer items that interest me as well recently. However, I know that part of the reason for that is more reliance on privately funded (and selected) repertoire that Albany is not subsidizing, and is not necessarily a reflection of the label's owners' own interests, which I know prominently include the big names we've been discussing here. Do these other releases sell? With a minimal financial investment by the label and a reasonable degree of selectiveness, they sell well enough to subsidize the more important releases we yearn for, and which would need to sell in far, far greater quantities on their own to justify further releases. Again, it all comes down to money.
Would I subsidize recordings of "unsung" repertoire I'm dying to hear, and insufficiently played repertoire I feel should get either better recordings and/or wider exposure than they've received heretofore? You betcha!
Unfortunately, I haven't won the lottery yet, so I can only dream, and settle for what Albany and others give us, while doing what I can to influence their recording decisions! (and reveling in the treasures we're all sharing here, your contributions high among them!)
Quote from: Latvian on Tuesday 13 December 2011, 23:28
QuoteAlbany sometimes pulls a surprise out of the hat, but that's about as far as it goes, I fear.
Anyway, I firmly believe that Albany has done yeoman service for American composers and as far as I know will continue to do so.
Oh, I never meant to imply otherwise - the "I fear" was more to do with the fact that they are the
only label doing such a service for American composers, as far as I can see. I applaud them as well for all that they
have done.
As to the question about arts education - it goes beyond that, I fear. There's a fundamental suspicion of classical music, I'd say, in many circles of American culture today. Right or wrong, it's viewed as the province of the "
ee-lite". This is reinforced by much of what's on television. Rich people, who are poncy and stuck-up, are the only people who go to the opera; kids who play classical music a.) bore everyone around them to sleep and b.) are miserable because they want to be playing "fun" stuff. (Both are actual examples drawn from television series I've seen.) Orchestras don't boost American music enough, and the schools that
do teach music history don't teach a great deal of American music as part of the curriculum, so there's no sense of national "art musical" identity. Additionally, classical music has been kept out of the mainstream for much of the past fifty years, and it's only just now starting to allow itself back in.
The result has been a winnowing of national pride, at least as far as the arts. The question of elite-ness is key; why care about art if you can't see that it has a place in your life? And how can it have a place in your life if you've developed a notion that it shouldn't, and then had that notion reinforced with pop-culture shorthand?
I'm probably talking out of my hat, as I am prone to do (which anybody will tell you). ;D I do think there's hope for the future, though. Now all we need is an adventurous record company...
QuoteAs to the question about arts education - it goes beyond that, I fear. There's a fundamental suspicion of classical music, I'd say, in many circles of American culture today. Right or wrong, it's viewed as the province of the "ee-lite". This is reinforced by much of what's on television. Rich people, who are poncy and stuck-up, are the only people who go to the opera; kids who play classical music a.) bore everyone around them to sleep and b.) are miserable because they want to be playing "fun" stuff. (Both are actual examples drawn from television series I've seen.) Orchestras don't boost American music enough, and the schools that do teach music history don't teach a great deal of American music as part of the curriculum, so there's no sense of national "art musical" identity. Additionally, classical music has been kept out of the mainstream for much of the past fifty years, and it's only just now starting to allow itself back in.
The result has been a winnowing of national pride, at least as far as the arts. The question of elite-ness is key; why care about art if you can't see that it has a place in your life? And how can it have a place in your life if you've developed a notion that it shouldn't, and then had that notion reinforced with pop-culture shorthand?
Very eloquently put, and very much on target, I'm afraid. Unfortunately the stereotypes you cite in your comments are all too true, and not only endorsed but actively reinforced by our pop culture society. The depth of culture ignorance I encounter on a daily basis is not just saddening, but disheartening.
My wife and I are both trained musicians, with music degrees. We have two daughters who both caught the music "bug" from us, and are now in college studying music. As we watched and heard them develop and grow musically throughout their public school years, we saw what music did for them as persons, helping provide a sense of worth, teaching them self-discipline, giving them pride in their accomplishments, learning to work with others, giving them goals and focus in their lives, and showing them how hard work is rewarded when they went on concert tours thanks to the results of their preparation. THIS is what I feel is lacking in many young people's lives, and they often turn to shallower, easier, and more culturally "acceptable" interests out of boredom, frustration, neglect, and apathy. Our culture doesn't encourage true achievement in general.
I fear we've gotten quite off-topic here, but I had to get these thoughts off my chest!
Quote from: Latvian on Wednesday 14 December 2011, 14:03
Very eloquently put, and very much on target, I'm afraid. Unfortunately the stereotypes you cite in your comments are all too true, and not only endorsed but actively reinforced by our pop culture society. The depth of culture ignorance I encounter on a daily basis is not just saddening, but disheartening.
My wife and I are both trained musicians, with music degrees. We have two daughters who both caught the music "bug" from us, and are now in college studying music. As we watched and heard them develop and grow musically throughout their public school years, we saw what music did for them as persons, helping provide a sense of worth, teaching them self-discipline, giving them pride in their accomplishments, learning to work with others, giving them goals and focus in their lives, and showing them how hard work is rewarded when they went on concert tours thanks to the results of their preparation. THIS is what I feel is lacking in many young people's lives, and they often turn to shallower, easier, and more culturally "acceptable" interests out of boredom, frustration, neglect, and apathy. Our culture doesn't encourage true achievement in general.
I fear we've gotten quite off-topic here, but I had to get these thoughts off my chest!
Well, it
is the
American symphony thread... ;D
I think that things are getting better, slowly...and part of that has been the thawing of classical music with regards to the culture around it. One of the reasons classical music has always been viewed as a world apart, I think, is that it has set itself apart. One of the reasons I love Alex Ross is that he is willing to admit a love for both Bartok and the Velvet Underground. I may not share his tastes, but I'm glad that he's willing to admit them...I've known plenty of critics who are snobbish about their interests. (Speaking of whom - he linked once to a fascinating
New Republic article on the question. It laid out the main points of the music-snobbery question in remarkably lucid fashion, even if I didn't agree with all of its conclusions.)
From my own perspective - I'm 27, and judging by the audience I see at some cultural events (not all, mind...the NSO still has a long way to go to make things better) things are starting to change. I live in the DC suburbs, which means I have access to a decent roster of concerts. There are new groups being added - there's a new chamber opera group in Arlington called UrbanArias - even as a couple of the old mainstays are falling by the wayside. And there are the constants - the Library of Congress series, the Dumbarton Oaks series. Now I'll admit, I don't partake of many of these things regularly; I may or not may be notoriously poor at scheduling stuff. :) But over the past few years I think the audience has started to skew younger. I know it has at the opera...because there are cheap-ticket promotions targeted at young people.
The reasons for the change? There I'm not sure, honestly - I'll get back to you when I figure something out.
The marginalization of classical music from the mainstream of American culture is really part of a much larger problem -- the rampant anti-intellectualism that pervades the country. Despite lip-service to education, in practice, there is little real commitment to substantive education by federal and state governments, and a deep skepticism of education by the general populace. A part of this derives from the very vocal and powerful religious right, which condemns science and history as the enemy of religious faith, propounding creationism and its variants in the schools. Another contributor is the ongoing effort to equate education with liberalism, socialism and other "anti-American" values. One need only look at the line-up of morons trotted out as presidential candidates, whose combined IQ might be equal to that of a rock, to note the healthy distaste for education.
In this environment, I can understand why American record labels are very cautious releasing recordings of American composers. In the U.S., a classical CD with sales of 200 in a week is counted a huge hit. Sales that high are typically limited to pretty women with a website filled with alluring photos recording a couple of warhorses.
Sorry if this seems overly critical and pessimistic, but I am not optimistic that American labels will ever record more than a small sampling of music by American composers, and even less optimistic that we'll hear them in concert.
Amphissa, hits nail on head!!
Quote from: Amphissa on Friday 16 December 2011, 20:29
The marginalization of classical music from the mainstream of American culture is really part of a much larger problem -- the rampant anti-intellectualism that pervades the country.. ........
Couldn't agree more with your characterization of America's anti-intellectualism, although it's not just an American phenomenon of course! :( :(
I can't say which I think is the single greatest, 'unsung'' American symphony. The irony is that we can only propose a symphony we know, which leaves out the countless, grossly unsung symphonies which we don't know! ::)
Although these are available on CD, so not sure they really count... I think my shortlist would include:
- Randall Thompson – 3rd
Roy Harris - 6th - 'Gettysburg'
John Knowles Paine – 2nd
:) :)
QuoteThe marginalization of classical music from the mainstream of American culture is really part of a much larger problem -- the rampant anti-intellectualism that pervades the country. Despite lip-service to education, in practice, there is little real commitment to substantive education by federal and state governments, and a deep skepticism of education by the general populace.
Right on!
Having been in public education for over 30 years, I have seen first hand the lip-service from the political class and the astonishing lack of interest by the public. When my school needs a new football coach though, then it becomes an issue of national importance. Everyone is so concerned. They have hearings and meetings and interviews. But if you need a new calculus teacher, eh, who cares? is the attitude. Given the success of Venezuela and Il sistemo in producing classical musically inclined kids, like Gustavo Dudamel, there are awakenings of interest in trying something like it here. Of course, Americans never learn. We have several Rock and Roll Schools opening. Forget trying to teach kids violin, piano or something truly beneficial and difficult. We'll kowtow to the lowest common denominator and teach rock guitar and drums. Of course, they won't be taught to read music. And parents buy into it! It's sad really. In most of our schools, the top honor students are Asian, and the orchestras are full of Asians. More power to them! The stupid anglo parents don't want their kids playing sissy stuff like classical music, and will doom their offspring to a musically meaningless life. Sorry to rant, but the dumbing down of musical standards is a real sore spot with me.
QuoteHaving been in public education for over 30 years, I have seen first hand the lip-service from the political class and the astonishing lack of interest by the public. When my school needs a new football coach though, then it becomes an issue of national importance. Everyone is so concerned. They have hearings and meetings and interviews. But if you need a new calculus teacher, eh, who cares? is the attitude. Given the success of Venezuela and Il sistemo in producing classical musically inclined kids, like Gustavo Dudamel, there are awakenings of interest in trying something like it here. Of course, Americans never learn. We have several Rock and Roll Schools opening. Forget trying to teach kids violin, piano or something truly beneficial and difficult. We'll kowtow to the lowest common denominator and teach rock guitar and drums. Of course, they won't be taught to read music. And parents buy into it! It's sad really. In most of our schools, the top honor students are Asian, and the orchestras are full of Asians. More power to them! The stupid anglo parents don't want their kids playing sissy stuff like classical music, and will doom their offspring to a musically meaningless life. Sorry to rant, but the dumbing down of musical standards is a real sore spot with me.
I couldn't agree more! I think you've really hit the nail on the head with your comment about kowtowing to the lowest common denominator. This is true in many aspects of American life, sadly. Instead of striving to raise the abilities of the less able, we denigrate and diminish the accomplishments of the more able, not wanting to be "elitist." We wind up glorifying ignorance, lack of accomplishment, and mediocrity. The dumbing-down of American (and other countries, to be sure) is in full swing!
Don't worry - dumbing down's been going on for years in the UK too. Try US writer Neil Postman's book Amusing Ourselves To Death written a quarter of a century ago - truly prophetic. Of course, Huxley got it right in Brave New World (rather than Orwell in 1984): whereas Orwell feared those who would ban books, Huxley was afraid that there would be no reason to ban books because nobody would want to read one. Except if you live in North Korea...
David Diamond's Third Symphony - worthy I think to stand alongside the other great American 'thirds' by Harris, Schuman and Copland.
How about Rochberg's superb 5th? Arresting, exciting - and consciously part of The Great Tradition. What a piece - haven't been so excited by something relatively modern (1984-5) in years!
The American Symphony is one of my passions, it would be almost impossible for me to pick out the greatest but for me the following symphonies are among the best:
Barber 1 & 2
Bristow Symphony in F# minor
Chadwick 2
Copland 2 & 3
Corigliano 1
Creston 2 & 3
Diamond 2, 3 & 4
Gould 3
Hanson 3 & 6
Harris 1, 3, 6, 7 & 11
Ives 3 & 4
Mennin 7 & 8
Paine 1
Piston 2, 4 & 6
Riegger 4
Rochberg 5
Rouse 1
Schuman 3, 5, 6 & 9
Sessions 2, 7 & 9
The worst I've come across are the Rosner Symphonies, bland to the point of making one angry and the Shapero Symphony for a Classical Orchestra, when I first heard it I wasn't sure if it was a bad joke.
Quote from: suffolkcoastal on Monday 16 April 2012, 22:44
The worst I've come across are the Rosner Symphonies, bland to the point of making one angry and the Shapero Symphony for a Classical Orchestra, when I first heard it I wasn't sure if it was a bad joke.
...whereas I greatly admire Shapero's Symphony. Stravinsky and Beethoven
do mix! IMHO, of course...
How sad that we can't even begin to judge the list of romantic symphonys that no one programs. Here are examples:
Bristow 1,3,5
Brockway in D
Burleigh 1,2
Coerne 1-6
Hadley 1,3,5,6,7
Hutcheson 1,2
Loeffler Hora Mystica
Parker in c
Saminsky 1-5
Shapleigh 1,2
Smith, David 1,2
Stock 1,2
Strong 1,3
To name some of the more familiar names.....
Jerry
Thanks for reminding me about George Templeton Strong :) I shall add him to my list for cataloguing ;D Henry Kimball Hadley is up next anyway. Loeffler and Parker have been done. The others I may need to pass on though :(