The first couple of times i heard this, i felt it was somewhat bombastic,(a common opinion on this particular monster); but it has begun to seriously grow on me. yes, there are longueurs; yes there is sequential wrting and Rubinsteinian repetition. But the themes are lovely: in all three movements; and the first movment's slow, romantic theme seems to return at the end of the finale.And, there is that eerie passage in the slow movement. The overall feeling is, to me, similar to that conjured up by the wonderful spellbinding music of Moszkowski: its that stoical, happy-cum-sad(simultaneously) bittersweet feeling(cf. the end of Moszkowski's PC finale), that a lot of these Romantic concerti do so well and with few comparisons outside the genre(Scharwenka number 3 is another poignant, and even more perfect, example).You are left with the feeling that life-somehow-despite what it throws at you- must go on.
And on a side-note, Adrian Ruiz(Genesis LP, reissued on cd) THUNDERS out some of the granitic chords like no-one(except Michael Ponti's, who didnt record this one) business.
So, any similar experiences of works that originally left you unmoved but grew on you in their emotional impact or poigancy?
Steve
I disagree about the cyclic approach in Rubinstein PC 5. I hear no reference to any theme from the first movement at any point in the finale. Other than that, I'm right with you there, Steve. Although I must confess, I liked the score from the get-go.
Elgar's 2nd symphony was like that for me. I first encountered it maybe 30 years ago and it went in one ear and out the other. Nothing stuck. It seemed turgid, bloated, empty and frankly dull. Then a long, long time passed and I never once took out the record (Barbirolli no less). Then about 12 years back I was up late one night an tuned in the classical station and heard the most beautiful, poignant music I'd ever heard: it was the 3rd movement. When they announced the work I was stunned. Could that symphony that I had dismissed so readily really have this much beauty? I immediately dug out the old LP and listened. Such marvelous music. Now, there isn't hardly a week go by that I don't listen to it. I've collected over 20 versions to keep it fresh. The closing pages can still bring a tear. There is nothing like sitting by a fire, a good brandy or cognac in hand, lights turned low and listening to Elgar's 2nd.
For me, the whole revelation that the unsungs could be so worthwhile came during my student days with the Rott symphony. In those days, I used to read with music as a 'backdrop' and although I didn't like the Rott *at all* at first, I just kept being too lazy to change the disc. The work very quickly grew on me.
Of course, since then (twenty years... sigh...) my whole perspective on music, and many of my tastes, have changed fundamentally; but the Rott symphony still holds a special place for that reason alone. More recently, by the way, I had a similar experience with the Urspruch symphony: didn't even like it in the beginning, was hooked after three listenings.
Saint-Saens Piano Concerto No. 5 . Ist movement second subject (in the minor key) is recapitulated near the end of the movement in a beautiful muted strings accomp. that is very poignant and lingers...
The Samuel Coleridge-Taylor Clarinet quintet IInd movement main theme is very beautiful and bittersweet.
Raff Symphony no. 3 "Im Walde" Largo-"In der Dammerung" is probably my most fav.
[quote author=FBerwald link=topic=816.msg10603#msg10603 date=1291970697
Saint-Saens Piano Concerto No. 5 . Ist movement second subject (in the minor key) is recapitulated near the end of the movement in a beautiful muted strings accomp. that is very poignant and lingers...]
Yes. Saint-Saens was something of a dab hand at codas. The coda of the Fourth Piano Concerto's 1st movement is hardly less poignant. He wasn't a composer who was capable of profound utterances but, because his melodic ideas are so often genuinely inspired and because he had the imagination and the technique to make the best of them, he often wrote music which is truly touching and which is, then, unforgettable. In that sense, Dvorak and Grieg are similar composers I think. Isn't Prokofiev a 20th Century equivalent? Who can ever forget his 1st Violin Concerto?
Still...to get back to the point...I rejected Stenhammar's 1st Symphony for many years because the composer himself rejected it and because it is so strongly influenced by Wagner and Brahms but I've recently returned to it and can't stop playing it. For poignancy, how about that wonderful string phrase in the 1st movement and the middle section of the 3rd movement?
Thanks guys; heartfelt responses. Jim, I am not totally clear re the return of the first movt second subject or part thereof-towards end of finale, but will re-listen; I am a bit vague re it and it may be a variant: it was more an intuition, but its either there or it isnt so will check cos want to listen to this rambling but lovely concerto all over again. Perhaps i shall even get to like No.2!As we have said before, what a weirdly uneven composer R. is:
1. Eroica Fantasy-masterpiece throughout
2. Similarly PC 4
3. PC 3, Symphonies-all uneven with moments of glory
I bet the Cello Concerti are growers too- quite subtle.
Forgot THE maddest piano concerto- No 1 with THE CRAZY OTT ending. Its time for another outing of Fardink's recording-wish Ponti had played THAT too.
Also currently growing on me-in a less profound way- Herz's Piano Concerti, especially no.1
Steve
The reubinstein Cello concertos certainly Grow on you.
Fortunately not unsung, but Bax's Tintagel. When I first heard it 30 years ago it struck me as a strange uncomfortable piece. But in years to come I want it in my grave with me, with machine set to 'constant replay'. That fits the bill for 'growing on you'!
Peter
I'm with you on Rubinstein's concertos: I find them all a good listen. So was he more inspired writing for a solo instrument than for the orchestra on its own, I wonder? He was, after all, one of the greatest virtuosi of the age...
Quote from: Alan Howe on Friday 10 December 2010, 12:34
I'm with you on Rubinstein's concertos: I find them all a good listen. So was he more inspired writing for a solo instrument than for the orchestra on its own, I wonder? He was, after all, one of the greatest virtuosi of the age...
Methinks You might be right.
I'll also take this opportunity to say that his Violin concerto ( no so much as the cello and piano concerti) is quite beautiful.
Yes, the VC is a big, serious and very lovely piece. Quite different, I think, from the PCs.
Quote from: Steve B on Friday 10 December 2010, 10:38
As we have said before, what a weirdly uneven composer R. is
I didn't say that, Steve. How can I ever say something like that of my favourite unsung composer, which Rubinstein still is, after the past years, full of new musical discoveries. ;)
Composers that have grown on me since the 1970s are Bruckner and Mahler. That has taken me many years. To me their symphonies are the most striking examples.
But a more recent example is Taneyev's Fourth. I have the CD coupling 2 and 4 (Polyansky on Chandos) and it took me many repeated listening before No. 4 has really and definitely grown on me. In the beginning I only liked both inner movements. I thought the opening
Allegro molto and the
Finale were too noisy. I had to force myself to listen to the complete symphony over and over again, and that worked. It didn't only result in my appreciation of this great symphony, but eventually made me a real Taneyev fan.
The Glazunov Violin Concerto is one of mine. Especially after I once heard the passionate and lovely performance by Tretnakov and the USSR SO. I suppose I've played this a hundred times. Saint Saens 3rd VC is another I return to often.
Today I returned to Jadassohn's two PCs. No.1 in particular struck me as a magnificent piece: brilliant and yet reflective by turns and with some unforgettable themes. I had badly underestimated it...
Can't wait for the symphonies on cpo!
Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 11 December 2010, 19:40
Today I returned to Jadassohn's two PCs. No.1 in particular struck me as a magnificent piece: brilliant and yet reflective by turns and with some unforgettable themes. I had badly underestimated it...
Funny, Alan. I feel a similar affection for the 2nd Jadassohn PC. PC 1 still hasn't quite caught on with me yet.
'Affection' is spot-on, Jim. Jadassohn's music definitely inspires affection: from the moment I heard some of his chamber music, he certainly warmed my heart.
My only problem with the PC 2 is that it's somewhat terse. It seems like the outer movements end too soon. Maybe he should have drawn out the codas of the first movement and finale a little bit more. And usually, I find economy of structure a good thing. So maybe it's a bit too much of a good thing?
Alan Hovhaness' Celestial Gate Symphony (No.6) in a single movement has a beautiful almost chant like melody whose poignancy grows on me everytime I listen to it.
Also try his Prayer of St. Gregory for trumpet and string orchestra. Very moving music!!!
Hello Steve B
Thank you for alerting me to Rubinstein's PC no 5. I didn't know this PC but as I like Rubinstein quite a lot (but not every work!), I bought this Cd on your recommendation and have since listened to it a couple of times. I really like the work, especially the first movement. I fully concur with your appraisal.
Cheers
Dennis
Hello F Berwald
It's very refreshing to find someone who likes Hovhaness and praises his works the way you have. I have a large number of his works (something in excesss of some 20 odd cds) and very much like his music. Occasionally though, if I were being a tad critical, I would say that sometimes his music can became a bit samey. That said, most of his music is quite beautiful in it's own way and I fully agree with your comments re- symphony no 6 and the Prayer for St Gregory.
cheers
Dennis
Quote from: DennisS on Sunday 12 December 2010, 11:07. Occasionally though, if I were being a tad critical, I would say that sometimes his music can became a bit samey. That said, most of his music is quite beautiful in it's own way and I fully agree with your comments re- symphony no 6 and the Prayer for St Gregory.
Indeed. I love it too (well most of it) and yes, it's quite samey, mainly because his modd tends to be very atmospheric as opposed melodically driven. That said, I absolutely adore Prayer of St. Gregory as well.
(I also highly recommend Symphony #4, but maybe I'm biased because of the long bass clarinet solo ^_^)
Thanks, Dennis!:) A convert to Rubies 5!Steve
I add "Faust" to the great Rubinstein oevre, especially the coda.That oboe theme, and then the funereal(literally, I presume) coda, with peircing brass.And the fifth Symphony has good theme to open the second movement. I WANT to like all of his stuff and THROUGHOUT all of his works, Peter1953; just find it a bit hit and miss. But some works are good/v.good throughout. Steve
Steve, in fact of all unsung composers from whom I have at least a couple of CDs, I recognize some less stronger works, even from Rubinstein. That is to say, with one exception and that is Rufinatscha. Of course his symphonies 1&2 are not of the same high level as his 5&6, but nevertheless those early symphonies are IMO already evidence of a very promising composer. Raff's last four symphonies, I'm sorry to confess, must still fully grow on me...
I love reading about people's experiences with this sort of thing. Having my opinion of a work grow on me to the point of becoming a really passionate enthusiasm over time... it's fairly rare, but truly delightful. It's a different sort of thing than a love-at-first-hear deal, it feels different, but it's no less satisfying to me.
In my case, there are several such works, including the famous Rachmaninov Piano Concerto #2, and the not-so-famous Stanford PC #1. Then, there are whole composers - largely speaking - that have grown on me in this way. Perhaps the most surprising of these is Reinecke, of all people. For some reason, my taste for Reinecke grew from initial indifference, slowly over time, until now the lukewarm has turned into a blaze. Reinecke's music really appeals to me in a huge way these days.
But more than that, most of all, it was Joachim Raff. Before Raff, there was little written beyond 1830 or so that I liked at all. Even a lot of Mendelssohn - generally regarded as fairly tame - struck my ears as unnaturally harsh and unpleasant. My ears were just completely attuned to the late 18th century, and moving outside that was sometimes almost physically unpleasant. I liked Czerny, Moscheles, Sullivan, and other composers that might be described as backward-looking in terms of their harmonic tendencies; Classical-Romantics, I once heard them called. There were just certain sounds and audio-textures that started being used as the 19th century wore on that I just couldn't tolerate.
Some clarinetist from Australia communicated with me via e-mail, perhaps because of an article I'd written on Franz Krommer, I can't recall why. In any case, he told me about a composer whose name I had only vaguely seen a few times. I don't think I'd ever heard a note of this Joachim Raff before he convinced me to check out the 5th Symphony. Those opening seconds just wowed me instantly. I got a few CDs, gave them a listen, and thought it was okay, but not my cup of tea. Time went on, and I'd listen again for some reason, and again... and each time, I liked more. I got more CDs, thought to at least get the complete symphonies... and I eventually came to like, then adore, all of them. Every single one. Not sure which is my least favourite (#6?), but I actually love it. Then I started finding the chamber music, cello concerti, piano concerto, an amazing CD of songs, everything... and now, I'm just blown away. I don't get into lists much, but if pressed, I'd name Raff as one of the top 5, or even top 3, composers who ever lived, and I do mean of all time.
Sorry about the length of this. I know it's just words, but this growing adoration thing is a really outstanding adventure, and I'm really excited in the hopes of going through another one soon, whether it be for a single work or a composer in general.
Thanks for sharing that history, Josh. The past is a story constantly rewritten, and Raff's place in music history is sure to rise as more open-eared people like yourself get a chance to hear him.
I'm grateful to Mark for his yeoman's effort on Raff's behalf.
Thanks for the thanks, which is very much appreciated. It's a labour of love, of course. Raff is a standard bearer for the legion of Unsungs, I think, and as his star continues to rise so will many of theirs.
I dont want to sound negative , but is IT ACTUALLY happening? I mean it's one thing to discuss Raff's greatness on a forum but is he appearing in concert halls. Has there been any progress in the last ....say 10 years ... any major orchestras pick him up? I sincerely hope that it happens!
Quote from: FBerwald on Saturday 18 December 2010, 04:22
I dont want to sound negative , but is IT ACTUALLY happening? I mean it's one thing to discuss Raff's greatness on a forum but is he appearing in concert halls. Has there been any progress in the last ....say 10 years ... any major orchestras pick him up? I sincerely hope that it happens!
judging from http://www.raff.org/news/reviews/reviews.htm (http://www.raff.org/news/reviews/reviews.htm) not just yet, depending on "major"? and so do I.
I take your point. No, I don't think that Raff s considered a "major" by the big concert halls and their orchestras, but there are certainly many more performances around the world of his music than there were, particularly in Germany and Switzerland, and that indicates significant movement. More to the point, I think that there's a strong case for the argument that the focus of classical music has changed from live performance to recorded. I'm not saying that's how it should be, but it think it true nonetheless. The concert hall repertoire of the major orchestras has ossified over the last 50 years to the degree that there are probably no more than 250 works being played with any regularity anywhere. In contrast, the market for recorded music is very much more diverse now than it was and, dare I say it, educated. That's where the Unsungs are scoring their successes. The big classical labels now aren't Decca, Philips, EMI and DGG of old, they're Chandos, Hyperion, cpo and Naxos and their catalogues are chock full of Unsungs. I do believe that this is slowly feeding through to broadcasting and will eventually lead to a liberalising of the live repertoire. There's also a clear willingness in academe to be more open-minded about "unknown" composers and a disinclination to parrot the judgements of previous generations, which can only be healthy. Finally, I've found performers much more interested in this repertoire than they were 10 years ago. Indeed, there's often an astonishment that such good quality music has been buried.
I didn't mean to sound smug or complacent, and maybe it came across that way. There has been significant movement, but there's also a very long way to go.
If we go by mere appearances in the concert hall, hardly any unsungs are actually being performed on a regular basis. But what we can say is that a very large proportion of Raff's output has now been recorded - which certainly wasn't the case 20 years ago. In this respect Raff is leading the way...
Somewhat defensively - I was just addressing myself to the exact question posed, not a broader one, regarding Raff. What orchestra will Järvi be recording with anyhow, any idea? :)
"...There's also a clear willingness in academe to be more open-minded about "unknown" composers and a disinclination to parrot the judgements of previous generations..."
And thank heavens for it. Now if we could only grant the new music mafia at the New York Times and the New Yorker similar enlightenment...
David
The Nation used to have some thoughtful music writers once, even though John Leonard once in passing (in an article not, I think, primarily about WW2- I mean, music (yes, that's a Tom Lehrer reference)) referred to too much of Stenhammar's Second Symphony (or words to that effect) and Edward Said described Roger Sessions' (Bminor/C minor 1930) 1st piano sonata as a "period piece". (I don't think I agree, but I do agree opinions should differ and he was a thoughtful writer generally.) Not sure offhand if they have a writer who has much to do with classical music at this time, though.
As to the New Yorker, is Alex Ross all so bad?... I disagree with him about a number of things when I read him but I don't think of him as I used to think of Donal Henahan (sp?) and others at the NYT. (It was so amusing to read a review decades back by Henahan of a Bacewicz work where he criticized her music for lacking exactly the qualities, I think, he would later excoriate composers and music for having...)
Eric
"...As to the New Yorker, is Alex Ross all so bad?..."
He's wonderful on the standard repertoire and music after WWI. But you can generally say that about the Times, as well. Actually, on last season's Met Opera revival of Thomas' Hamlet, the Times had an excellent, intelligent article & a fine review, though Ross had the usual knee-jerk reactions. The recent (and politically-correct?) Times review of Fanny Mendelssohn's murkily orchestrated Cantata was complementary, while the much finer and better orchestrated Letzten Dinge of Spohr that followed it on the ASO program was felt to be 'too long' (at about 70 minutes!) Absurd. Completely unfamiliar music, even old completely unfamiliar music is a strain on the listener's attention and not automatically to be blamed on the composer. I can practically sing the Spohr from beginning to end, and I didn't find it a moment too long.
E. Said as music critic?!?
David
Re Said: e.g. http://www.mediamonitors.net/edward35.html (http://www.mediamonitors.net/edward35.html) (yes, I know Lehar was closer than Wagner to Hitler's heart, but just choosing this as an example and probably not the best one; I don't know. Was the first one that came up, and I'm feeling, I admit, logey to be mild about that :) ) I believe there's at least one, possibly a few, books by Said collecting his music criticism or even originally intended (not collections) for the subject, and hardly all from political angles by any means, but again I will have to check later...
Quote from: edurban on Saturday 18 December 2010, 19:41
"...As to the New Yorker, is Alex Ross all so bad?..."
He's wonderful on the standard repertoire and music after WWI. But you can generally say that about the Times, as well.
David
If one can say "wonderful on...music after WWI" about the Times, things really have changed since the days when Sargeant and Henahan variously were dispensing pithy one-liners in the guise of actual thought on the music of the day (Roger Sessions' 8th symphony was so disposed of by Sargeant, or so he thought; Henahan tried to do a better job by Schoenberg's piano concerto- not at its premiere, as with Sargeant and Sessions, but rather during my lifetime and hence many years after it instead, but could think of nothing better than to contrast the Schoenberg with Brahms' wonderful late piano works instead- an interesting thought but ... not as enlightening as could be.)
Eric
Quote from: eschiss1 on Saturday 18 December 2010, 16:41
Somewhat defensively - I was just addressing myself to the exact question posed, not a broader one, regarding Raff. What orchestra will Järvi be recording with anyhow, any idea? :)
Reportedly, the Suisse Romande Orchestra.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 18 December 2010, 23:54
Reportedly, the Suisse Romande Orchestra.
That seems a very good choice, a historic ensemble...
Does any one know if the four Marco Polo recordings of Rubinstein's music for piano and orchestra are to be re issued on Naxos?
When I last spoke to Klaus Heymann some years ago about their policy on reissuing the MP Raff symphonies on Naxos he said that they intended to do so only after existing stocks of the MP pressings had run out. In the meantime they have all become available both individually and as a "boxed set" as downloads and only two of the CDs have been reissued on Naxos. I suspect that the same thing will apply to other MP issues. From a different exchange only a couple of months ago with a senior HNH executive came the revelation that "our release schedule for the next 18 months is already full (with 25 to 30 new releases per month)." If the Rubinstein PCs aren't in the pipeline already, there might be a long wait...