Whilst reading this very interesting article in Interlude (https://interlude.hk/in-touch-with-paul-wee/), I was delighted to come across Paul's mention of plans for a recording of Henselt and Bronsart PCs (he also mentions a Beethoven/Liszt – Mozart/Alkan disk).
Although these are just in the planning stages, on the strength of his previous two releases both disks will certainly be on my want list.
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Wee is a tremendous pianist and the prospect of him playing the Bronsart, and indeed the Henselt, is an exciting one. Thanks for the news.
He is indeed a formidable talent. This planned CD will be a must-buy for me.
Good to know another pianist and record company are exploring these wonderful, too much ignored works. Let's nudge Bis to give us a complete set of Rubinstein concertos!
I'd be more interested in the piano concertos of Eduard Schutt (2 + a piece for Left Hand & orchestra) actually, or Halfdan Cleve (5), or those by Jakob Gyula Major (2 + 3 Fantasies for piano & orchestra). But very glad that BIS is giving Wee the opportunity to take up these two splendid examples of the genre.
with the exception of most of Cleve's, though, have those been recorded (commercially or otherwise)? The Henselt and Bronsart have, anyway... at least Kalmus published the full score of Schütt's Op.47, so someone may have a copy besides Pancras and Fleisher (which would make an accurate sample rendering more -possible- than if only the reduction were available, etc. The parts and score seem not to be online for these works except for some of Cleve's.)
To my knowledge, none of the concertos I mentioned have had commercial recordings, though some of the Cleve are available on YouTube in recordings of varying quality. Hyperion had the Schutt in their sights at one time but the rumour was that Klaus Heymann of Marco Polo was going to record them. But in the end neither project has materialised.
The two Schütt concertos (Op7 & Op47) would be the most desirable, even if it means foregoing the 'other' piece, which would seem to be of lesser importance - and, of course, not available outside Heymann's sphere of activity, certainly for the time being. I still feel that the Schütt concertos together with that of Borowski would still be the most attractive proposition, and Hyperion were still interested to some degree last year when I had confirmation of the availability of the orchestral material for all three concertos, which, from the indicated timings as well as some more basic investigation myself with the relevant scores, should all fit nicely onto one CD! I hope that Hyperion don't get pipped at the post, but would welcome any decent recording of these concertos which should have been recorded years ago!
Op.7&47 are listed as rentable through Zimmermann @ Worldcat - which is bloody expensive, of course- but again. -Why- should they? No recording (of any kind) to hear, I as record company exec would -pass-.
An excellent collection for a CD, Martin. And, as you say, all the performance materials are available. Both Schutt concertos from Fleisher - so relatively cheaply. The Borowski from the publisher (I forget who that is now, and I am not near my computer so I can't check my files) - I had a hire quote from them years ago. Would have to look it up. That's if I made a note at the time. It was a commercial rate, I seem to recall but not prohibitive.
Cleve's pc3 has been released on CD in a version for piano sextet (Joachim Carr, pf; Grand Piano 757) and his pc4 both on CD (Joachim Carr/Norwegian Radio O/Leo McFall; Grand Piano 757) and LP (Einar Steen-Nøkleberg/New SO of London/Roy Wales; NKF 30038). Nevertheless, it would be good to have a new recording of the complete set along with the other works mentioned by Gareth.
I didn't know about the Grand Piano disks (thanks for letting me know) and had forgotten about the NKF recording which was a very long time ago.
I can't find a mention of the Cleve on Grand Piano. Not listed on the Naxos website under that label, and Carr's website says only that he is in the process of recording piano concertos by Cleve for Naxos.. Can you provide a link, please?
The Grand Piano recording of Cleve's PC4 seems only to be available on Spotify (and other streaming services):
https://open.spotify.com/album/3mZ06pnpdPHDUbr4xTSVEk
Thanks, Alan. A fat lot of use that is.
Quite. Why on earth they should keep this recording from 2016 hidden away like that in a 'Norwegian special edition' is beyond me.
Should there be a new thread on the Cleve PCs, perhaps?
I took one look at this release and thought: 'Oh, no - it's with the Swedish Chamber Orchestra; I hope this isn't some misguided HIP project!"
Oh dear! So do I.
I may be wrong, but why use a chamber orchestra in this repertoire?
Well, quite. Let's hope we are both wrong and our fears prove unfounded.
Judging by an official photo, the orchestra is 30-strong. Hmm....
...but the coupling and the prospect of Wee as soloist are beguiling. My fingers are crossed.
Well, the Henselt is scored for an orchestra of: 2.2.2.2 / 2.2.3.0 / timp / strings
The Bronsart calls for an orchestra of: 2.2.2.2 / 4.2.0.0 / timp / strings
So the string section might sound a bit lean. I don't know. We must wait and see.
Dausgaard did the Schumann symphonies with this orchestra - some really liked them, finding them lean and athletic; others (like me) hated them as too insubstantial by half. It all depends what the conductor does with the strings...
MacKerras did the Brahms symphonies for Telarc with an orchestra of 50 players, a cycle that was greatly acclaimed and have long since become my favorites. This allowed for 30 strings, however. If the SCO is only starting with 30 players total...hmmm indeed.
Sometimes a chamber orchestra fills out with extras for a recording. Let's hope.
make no mistake, I too despise HIP travesties of Romantic repertoire, but here I am a little more hopeful.
I have a few recordings with this orchestra (including the Dausgaard Schumann, which I like very much, finding it refreshingly vigorous).
While interpretive choices could and will be a matter of taste, the Norwegians never sounded undernourished (not too much at least) screechy, or in any way grating to the ear. (in the releases I have..)
Cross fingers.
Excerpts available here. The finale oF Bronsart's concerto is taken at quite a lick. The orchestra sounds lean but perhaps more on its toes than a full symphony orchestra might be.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9615307--henselt-bronsart-piano-concerto
Well, I've been doing some comparisons (using headphones at Presto) between this new release and the two Hyperion CDs which feature the piano concertos involved - and I have to say that I really don't think the Swedish Chamber Orchestra are up to the job, especially in the slow movements where the strings in particular sound (to me) undernourished by comparison to the BBCSSO. Mind you, Paul Wee is an astonishing pianist and I can certainly see what Revilod means by his treatment of the finale of the Bronsart.
Anyway, for me this would be a pointless repeat purchase. But maybe piano-fanciers will feel differently. And to be honest, I don't think this was ever going to be a release for me as I tend to avoid HIP-influenced recordings if alternatives are available. A sign of my age and prejudices, no doubt...
I do agree that the SCO sounds underpowered, particularly so in the Henselt excerpts. I may buy the Bronsart download for Paul Wee's pianism but it'll be a whim if I do and Wee seems to have full albums on his YouTube channel, so there'll probably be the opportunity to hear the whole recording before deciding.
The recording is out today and, as is the modern way, it may be sampled in full on YouTube here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OetimLsu5GY&list=OLAK5uy_m5dbT48A6gf90WKnWqJnzAoJwPHtuSaXw).
According to the glowing review in June's Gramophone, this is Thrilling stuff, which will leave you breathless with admiration. 8)
The Bronsart's finale is being played on BBC Radio 3's Record Review as I type: "virtuosic & highly entertaining [...] a fine recording" was the presenter's verdict.
At the risk of grumpiness, mind, I'd like a new recording of Bronsart's piano trio :). There's a terrific piece.
Hear, hear, Eric. I suggested it to Hyperion as a coupling to the third Litolff trio which Simon Perry told me he was intent on recording with the Leonore Trio, but now that he has sold to Universal who knows if that will take place.
It's possible. More people have access to the earlier recording by streaming now (Hyperion recordings are now available over Amazon music) and interest may have increased. It's unfortunate, though, that the booklet makes it seem, and reviews parroted the implicit claim, that Litolff only wrote -2- piano trios- which works the other way... :)
I spent much of this morning listening to this recording, and it is very, very good. Paul Wee's pianism is a tad more aggressive than Hamelin's more lyrical approach in the Henselt, and I think it suits the piece. Neither is "better" for me, but it's good to have two (slightly) different approaches.
The Swedish Chamber Orchestra sounds full-bodied enough, thankfully, as it does in the Bronsart (which is confusingly listed as "Schellendorf" on Spotify). This is without doubt the best rendition of Bronsart's concerto available for purchase, as it easily beats the lackluster Despax recording on Hyperion. However, I think I still prefer the Triendl over this one, mostly on account of the orchestra.
Also, the recording sounds oddly bass-heavy in the Bronsart, and I sometimes had the impression I could hear feet shuffling and other (remote) artefacts.* A very good recording, and I'm glad to see BIS still releasing such efforts even after their take-over by Apple.
* I tested this with Apple Music, Presto and Spotify, using a Sennheiser Momentum 4 headphones and an Earfün 3 Pro set of earbuds.
I heard the excerpt on the radio and decided to order the CD despite my reservations about the orchestra. Call me a hypocrite... ;)
Quote from: Ilja on Monday 03 June 2024, 11:20Also, the recording sounds oddly bass-heavy in the Bronsart, and I sometimes had the impression I could hear feet shuffling and other (remote) artefacts.
Perhaps the thumping of the dampers? Sometimes that carries through.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 03 June 2024, 12:18I heard the excerpt on the radio and decided to order the CD despite my reservations about the orchestra. Call me a hypocrite... ;)
Let's put it this way: when listening to this recording on it's own didn't give me the impression for a moment that the orchestra's sound was somehow too thin. Hearing it next to the Triendl recording, on the other hand...
Listening to the two commercial recordings of the Bronsart (Wee and Despax on Hyperion), Wee wins hands down on pianism and sheer verve. It's exciting and passionate, whereas Despax seems much more detached. The aural ambiance of the BIS recording is more immediate too, much more like sitting in the front rows of a concert hall and that's something shared by the radio recording of Oliver Triendl's performance, which has all the vivacity and involvement of Wee's in the first movement and tenderness in the second but lacks Wee's madcap dash in the finale, though he's no slouch (there's only 20 seconds difference in the duration). The orchestra in Triendl's rendition sounds not so much larger as a little more polished, especially so in the slow movement. There's not much to choose between Wee's and Triendl's accounts and we're lucky to have both. I'd be happy with either but, if I had to, I'd join Ilja in choosing Triendl over Wee because his orchestra has a slight edge and I prefer his less breathless finale.
Those are very helpful comparisons, Ilja and Mark, thank you. My Ponti/Vox recording needs to be relegated to the back shelf and I wasn't sure which to go for, but on balance it'll be Triendl - the Unsung Composers' friend. Then again, I might just get both! ;D
Now that I've received my copy of the CD I can hear what BIS have done: to compensate for the sound of a smaller orchestra, the recording volume has been set high for maximum impact. And I must say that the decision is clearly justified. The impact is actually quite startling. So, I take back (almost) everything I originally said, i.e. while still wishing for a fuller sound, especially from the strings.
Nevertheless, a pianistic triumph. Wow-Wee, as it were!
Erm thanks, Colin!!!
To be serious, though, this really is a superlative recording. Wee's Henselt (which I'm playing as I type) is simply overwhelming in its virtuosity.
I remember in my youth the following recording being released on CBS (featuring pianist Raymond Lewenthal with the LSO conducted by Charles Mackerras):
https://www.discogs.com/release/5836095-Henselt-Liszt-Lewenthal-With-The-London-Symphony-Orchestra-Conducted-By-Charles-Mackerras-Piano-Conc
A musician friend of mine must have told me about the level of difficulty of the piece, but I don't think I ever bought the LP. I see that it was reissued on CD, so does anyone know Lewenthal's recording? (I'd really like to hear the LSO's contribution to the performance.)
The Lewenthal LP can be heard on the Internet Archive. (https://archive.org/details/concertoinfminor00hens)
Thanks - much appreciated.
I've just found it on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPys5ZWoaQ0
Unlike the Bronsart, there's not so much to choose between Wee and Hamelin (on Hyperion) in the Henselt. I thought that the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra under Martin Brabbins might give Hamelin the edge over the smaller Swedish orchestra but the latter come over quite punchily in the tuttis and one doesn't really notice that there are fewer of them. Pianistically, I suppose that Wee's comes across as marginally the sharper performance but there's much less in it than between him and Despax in the Bronsart. Given his profile let's hope this release helps both concertos gain the popularity they deserve.
IMHO, Raymond Lewenthal's performance is still the front runner, in spite of its age! I haven't listened to it recently - and perhaps I ought to, but the sheer excitement conjured up by Lewenthal's pianistic brilliance, coupled with a top flight orchestra, does Henselt the ultimate honour. I also like Lewenthal's extra reinforcement to the orchestra in the grand romantic tradition! He will be incredibly difficult to equal, let alone beat, in this landmark recording of one the best 19th century concerti, sung or unsung!
There's also this performance on YouTube of the Henselt (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-a590vTAJM) by Evren Ozel and The Orchestra Now under Leon Botstein. I must admit that, until I reacquainted myself with it after buying Wee's recording, I had quite forgotten what a fine concerto Henselt's is.
I definitely prefer the fuller sound of the BBCSSO under Martyn Brabbins in the Henselt (Hyperion), but the SwedishCO are certainly punchier on BIS. Wee's recording is primarily for pianophiles, I feel, but perhaps Hamelin/Brabbins gives a better sense of this being a concerto with an important part for the orchestra.
Swings and roundabouts. I'm glad I have both.
Inspired by Alan's remark about the sound in the Bronsart, I compared the waveforms of three recordings of the Bronsart concerto, and it gives some indication of how the Swedish Chamber Orchestra sounds bigger than it really is. See the image here (https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/kg1kmary72wvgf2kvmegj/Bronsart.jpg?rlkey=xa8mxqh0cm4yrsjhfemj86jjq&dl=0) (waveform, left channel, normalized to -1 Db).
In short; the recording is louder overall, particularly in the softer sections. Moreover, sections where the full orchestra is playing are all similarly loud in the Wee recording, but in the others the coda is louder than tutti earlier on. This amplifies the dynamic contrast in sound between softer and louder parts, creating a more "muscular" sound. The disadvantage is that is more subtle transitions perhaps get lost; it's a bit "on" or "off".
Thanks, Ilja. What's particularly noticeable from the three waveforms is how all the Wee orchestral tutti have a flat "cut off" at maximum volume, something absent from the Despax and Triendl profiles. Comparison with the other two shows by how much the BIS recording has been amplified to boost the quieter passages at the expense of detail in the louder one. Interesting.
I'm quite surprised at the choice BIS has made here - my experience of their recordings is that they're normally well balanced and realistic sounding. It's very different from both the Hyperion versions.
I suspect doing things this way wasn't BIS' intention. Perhaps the recording mix showed up the SCO as being too small an ensemble for this repertoire and their only option, short of re-recording with a larger orchestra, was to compensate for it by manipulating the mix and boosting their contribution?
If so, it's a strange set of circumstances.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Sunday 09 June 2024, 21:23I suspect doing things this way wasn't BIS' intention. Perhaps the recording mix showed up the SCO as being too small an ensemble for this repertoire and their only option, short of re-recording with a larger orchestra, was to compensate for it by manipulating the mix by boosting their contribution?
I'd say that's quite plausible. If I manipulate the Triendl recording with a standard compressor in Audacity, I end up with a similar image (but more extreme since the orchestra was larger to begin with).
Sounds like sonic manipulation's the name of the game here. I suppose all recording involves choices, but have BIS gone too far?
Quote from: Alan Howe on Sunday 09 June 2024, 23:20...but have BIS gone too far?
Yes.
This is very far from the motto, "A BIS original dynamics recording", that used to grace the inlay of their products.
Although this is slightly off-topic, it reminds me of the common complaint years back from critics on this side of the Atlantic that, despite the merits of US recordings of all sorts of orchestral repertoire, there was too much manipulation of the sonics, in particular the unnaturally forward balancing of the woodwind in CBS releases. Maybe this has been improved in the digital re-processing of older recordings for CD and download, I can't be sure. And, of course, on this side of the pond there were Decca Phase 4 releases which were all about sonic manipulation.
Anyway, I wonder if anyone else is going to comment on the BIS recording. As you say, John, this is hardly their 'house' style - or anyone else's, come to think of it.
And now Jed Distler's given this a 10/10 rating at Classics Today. Hmm, my assessment would be more like 10/7.
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/paul-wees-concertos-with-cojones/
To me the more important question is: does it bother you? All recorded audio that is released is manipulated in some way or another. It needs to be in order to give a representative, "objective" idea of the work. And often that's something of a unicorn: the majority of people in a concert hall will presumably hear something quite different depending on the hall's acoustics, their seat relative to the orchestra, and a number of other factors. In that sense, BIS's "original dynamics" blurb is just another bit of marketing speak.
Particularly in orchestral music, creating a fitting sonic image requires great skill and I guess that we can all recall enough examples where the sound engineer went wrong. Where this case differs, however, is that it strays from what appears to be something of an industry consensus. Personally, I consider it an inventive solution to cope with the limitations of a recording and do justice to the composer's intention, rather than a problematic manipulation.
Does post-production manipulation of a recording bother me? Of course not, it's what a mixing desk is for and, as Ilja says, is part of the process of making any recording. What does bother me a little (but only a little) is the reason for it in this case. It's not to achieve a perfect "concert hall" balance between soloist and orchestra, say, it's to correct a predictable deficiency in the orchestra - that it never had the sheer volume needed for the repertoire. That was something which should have been have been apparent to the professionals before the recording was made - Alan voiced his concern here as soon as it was announced. There's a difference between using technology to cover up a shortcoming and using it to tweak an already good recording, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
Good point. And yes, it WOULD bother me if this were used as a way to employ fewer musicians than is necessary to create an acceptable performance.
I just thought from the beginning that they'd made a mistake choosing the SCO. I still do. The result is an exciting, but very odd CD - which only we seem to have noticed!
I will admit that the moment one truly has to worry that "original instrument" performance of a 1911 composition means a 1770 orchestra, something is a little wrong. I'm guessing we aren't quite there, and that I sound more reactionary than this anarchosyndicalist is -usually- accused of sounding, but... I mean... really.
(I have had other concerns about claims I've read- some having to do with practices in Renaissance music insisting that because the average performance of choral music to be expected at the time wouldn't have involved instruments, neither should ours, which makes my head spin (should our performances of music have the average horrible intonation and ensemble of the average performances of the time the music was written- e.g. 19th century music performed using the substitute system for "rehearsals" in England- too? The mind reels at that kind of logic. But I apologize for the digression...)
I share your pain at these sort of "developments", Eric. They represent a total lack of imagination, are a substitute for creativity and an artistic dead end.
QuoteTo me the more important question is: does it bother you?
Answer: yes it did, from day one. It still does. I don't know of any (modern) recording of romantic piano concertos that sounds as weird as this one. However, I've 'parked' my reservations because the pianism is so outstanding.
Wee also, judging from his Alkan (symphony & concerto from Op.39) disc (and his Thalberg?), seems to have some history of well-chosen repertoire which should be encouraged... (not saying necessarily with this disc.)
I said 'weird' because I can hear width in the orchestra, but not much in the way of depth - or is that merely a function of the size of the orchestra? Try picking out the timpani, for example - are they any more than a vague rumble?
But to return to the positive - this recording has considerably increased my admiration for the Bronsart as a piece of music rather than merely a showpiece. Now, if Mr Wee were to pop up in London with, say, the LSO in this concerto I'd be first in the queue for tickets.
Regarding the recording : This sounds like Dynamic Range Restriction aka the Loudness Wars, which are ubiquitous these days since so many listeners use the mobile device as their playback system. Typically it is close mic'ed pop recordings and especially those done in what I term concurrent mono which are distributed horizontally across the stereo field but with very little depth differences. Timpani are often the most difficult to record properly and the first to suffer because they are on the borderline of definite and indefinite pitch.
I could be wrong but I thought the "vogue" for chamber orchestras playing 19th C repertoire began as a financial rather than a HIP motivation. But there does seem to be an increasing liking for lightweight Beethoven so maybe this is the future whether we want it or not.
Mr Wee is, interestingly, back in London this afternoon, but for a solo performance.
Quote from: Maury on Saturday 15 June 2024, 05:24But there does seem to be an increasing liking for lightweight Beethoven so maybe this is the future whether we want it or not.
Well, there's been lightweight Brahms, Bruckner, Tchaikovsky, etc. Fancy the SCO under Dausgaard in the Pathétique? :o