If we omit Spohr, Lachner, Mendelssohn and Schumann, which are the most important symphonists in Germany/Austria in the period 1827 to 1850?
Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 27 June 2009, 15:23
If we omit Spohr, Lachner, Mendelssohn and Schumann, which are the most important symphonists in Germany/Austria in the period 1827 to 1850?
Richard Wagner
Otto Nicolai
Important in what sense, Alan? To the subsequent development of music or viewed as important at the time?
I'm not sure that there's any body in the former category and precious few outside your list in the second. I suppose that Kalliwoda was amongst the most highly regarded symphonists in this period and, of course, Hermann Hirschbach was briefly thought a star in this era but we know nothing now of the music. Julius Rietz' early symphonies may just squeeze into this time frame as may Eduard Franck's but I'm not sure. Norbert Burgmüller comes to mind, also Staehle occur straight away, although I don't think that they were al that well known in their lifetimes.
I meant in any sense, Mark - whether viewed as important at the time or in the light of the subsequent development of music.
Franck's symphonies, I think, come later than 1850.
I agree that we have Wagner, Nicolai, Kalliwoda (although he was born in Prague), Burgmüller and Staehle - and Rietz and Hirschbach certainly fit too. Ferdinand Hiller would be another possibility, I assume. And then there is Moscheles and Ries (whose final symphony dates from 1835).
Otherwise we have Rufinatscha and Netzer...
What about the Symphonies of Norbert Burgmuller? I believe he wrote 2!
What about Czerny? He apparently wrote 6 symphonies...
Yes, Czerny - thanks, I'd forgotten him!
And Ries wrote 8 symphonies!
Gade, although Danish, was part of the German music scene during this time. How could I have overlooked Czerny and Ries?
Only Ries' last symphony (No.7) dates from after 1827. (No.'8' was actually written much earlier).
Gade - yes, he was really part of the Leipzig scene, wasn't he?
Has anything else been recorded from this period - or have we covered everything?
Not wanting to dampen the proceedings, but --
Wagner and Moscheles were important symphonists? Damn, I must have missed something along the way.
And if I remember correctly, Hiller's two symphonies were after 1850 -- the first premiered in London, not Germany (not sure it was performed in Germany anytime soon after that) and the second premiered in 1865.
Wagner's only complete symphony was written in 1834 when the composer was 19.
It was certainly well written ( I copied it out into Noteworthy last year), rather similar in style to the very early Schubert symphonies but, in my opinion, not a work of genius. I think Moscheles was persuaded to write a symphony against his own better judgment. Again, it was very well written, but not in the same class as his best piano concertos.
Excellent topic; thanks Alan!
I had never realized what a comparative dearth of symphonists Germany/Austria had in the second quarter of the 19th century. Maybe everybody was scared to follow Beethoven. Or maybe they decided to let the rest of Europe have a chance; there were certainly a lot being composed in other countries (by Gounod, Berwald, Farrenc, MacFarren, Hartmann, Onslow...).
-J
--
Jim Moskowitz
The Unknown Composers Page: http://kith.org/jimmosk/TOC.html (http://kith.org/jimmosk/TOC.html)
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Grove online has this entry for Hiller' symphonies:
Es muss doch Frühling werden, e, op.67 (Mainz, ?1860);
Im Freien;
2 syms., 1829–34
It appears, then, that there are also two very early symphonies...
Moscheles' Symphony in C may not have been an important work in its day (Schumann found it old-fashioned), but, looking back from our perspective today, it is an impressive piece in its own right. Well known writer and critic Malcolm MacDonald, writing in IRR (May 2009), describes it as a 'fine work'. I agree.
Gounod's two symphonies both date from after 1850 - the third quarter of the 19th century.
Don't forget that at least one of Hiller's symphonies was composed while he was in Paris (about 1829).
It was not easy to be a symphonic composer in the second quarter of the 19th century in Germany or Austria. The critics had a field day with them: either their works imitated Beethoven too closely or they were too far from Beethoven.
I don't think there could have been a shortage of symphonists in Germany and Austria in 1835 when the symphony competition run by the Vienna Music Friends attracted 56 entries, Franz Lachner and Otto Nicholai coming 1st and 2nd.
Lets not forget the 3 symphonies of Max Bruch.
Indeed. But Bruch's symphonies were written much later (1868 - 1882).
Here's a question which has arisen in my PhD thesis on the half (19th) century of the German symphonic crisis, and to which I'd appreciate an answer, if only confirmation that I am correct in thinking it might be Kalliwoda (and I appreciate that he was born in Prague, but Bohemian and German-speaking as well as working there all his life):
Kalliwoda 3 (1830) and 4 (1835) has solos for violin (No.3) and cello (the whole slow movement Romanze in the 4th). After Haydn 7 and 45, who else gave solos to string instruments before Kalliwoda, followed of course by Schumann 4 (1841) violin, Spohr 8 (1847) violin, Schnyder von Wartensee 3 (1848) double bass?
Any ideas?
I am happy to report that the Lambeth Orchestra committee approved my programme for 2009-2010, so that means I will conduct Lachner's 8th on 13th February 2010 at All Saints, Dulwich SE21. Check out the website if you want the full year's programme www.lambeth-orchestra.org.uk
Joachim Eggert (1779-1813) wrote a wonderful violin solo in the trio of the third movement of his C-minor symphony.
Anyone after Beethoven, say post-1830?
You're still missing a lot of Haydn. Besides the 7th and 45th Symphonies, there's the 55th (solo cello in the trio of the minuet), 88th (cello in the slow movement), 98th (violin in the finale) and I believe there are a few more that I can't even remember. I'm hard pressed to find a solo string instrument in any symphonies other than the ones you mentioned from the post-Beethoven/pre-Schumann period. Then, again, there aren't that many I've heard, either.
I suppose one would expect a violinist like Kalliwoda to introduce the violin as a solo instrument in a symphony. I'm rather surprised that Spohr didn't do likewise.
Gade, of course, employed a piano in his 5th symphony, but that dates from 1852, just outside the period under consideration.
I'd be interested to know if any of you have a cd of Burgmuller No.2 (on Koch or MDG), and can listen to the 2nd movement, which is uncannily like the 2nd movement of Schubert 9. It has a very similar prominent oboe solo introduced by the metronomic eighth notes. But surely Burgmuller, who died in 1836, could not have known Schubert 9 as Schumann only discovered it at Vienna in 1839. Burgmuller didn't travel south to Vienna, but operated in Dusseldorf and died nearby in Aachen. Perhaps he knew Franz Lachner, a friend of Schubert, whose 5th symphony is structurally at least as grandiose if not as Great as Schubert's, and one wonders if he had an early sighting of No.9 before Schubert's death in 1828.
Back to Burgmuller 2 - the first movement also sounds like Beethoven 7's finale but that is perfectly understandable - though cleverly Beethoven's duple rhythm becomes triple with Burgmuller, but he distorts it cleverly just like his exact contemporary Schumann, who also scored the Trio of this incomplete work, does so often in his music (followed in turn by his 'protege' Brahms).
The similarity between the slow movements of Schubert 9 and Burgmüller 2 is palpable (it was the first thing I thought when I heard the latter) - but I too am at a loss to know how this could have been, historically speaking...
I have just listened to Burgmüller's 2nd again. Both slow movements show definitely a remarkable similarity. However, I can hardly believe that Schumann, who instrumented the sketches of the 3rd movement in 1850, also revised the andante, with the score of Schubert's "Great C major" within arm's reach. That would be very bizarre, the more because the last movement sounds wholly Schumann, both in melody and instrumentation. That means that Burgmüller's 2nd symphony is a combination of Burgmüller himself (1st movement), Schubert (2nd) and Schumann (3rd).
No, this is too incredible. I think the resemblance is nothing but a coincidence. Or did Schubert's goast whispered the idea of the oboe solo, or the whole theme, in Burgmüller's ear, ten years after Schubert completed the score of his 9th? ??? And, also sinister, not long before Burgmüller passed away? Also far too young. Again a coincidence, I suppose.
Mentioning Schubert, I have always asked myself why he didn't compose a piano concerto. That would have been a grandiose, unequalled masterpiece...
It appears that Burgmüller didn't know Schubert 9 at all - so the similarity appears to be a complete coincidence. Extraordinary!
Quote from: Peter1953 on Wednesday 22 July 2009, 22:26Mentioning Schubert, I have always asked myself why he didn't compose a piano concerto. That would have been a grandiose, unequalled masterpiece...
I have often asked this question myself. As near as I can figure, Schubert's technique, while formidable, wasn't quite brilliant enough (in his own opinion) for a florid display piece, which most concertos were at the time. Plus, while he felt comfortable playing in intimate salon settings among friends, he may not have had the temperament to appear with a full orchestra in a public concert (remember also that most concertos at the time were composed by the performers themselves. The first piano concerto that comes to mind that was not ever performed by the composer was Beethoven's
Emperor). Of course, again, this is purely conjecture. A full-scale mature violin concerto from Schubert would have been nice, too. He knew plenty of violinists.
I shall conduct Burgmuller's Symphony No.2 with my Lambeth Orchestra on Saturday 13 February 2010 at 7.30pm at All Saints Church, West Dulwich, London SE21. It marks his bi-centenary, and I am told by the Burgmuller Society that this will be the British premiere. Does anyone know anything to dispute that?
Do come if you live near enough!
All best
Christopher Fifield
Norbert Burgmueller's influence on Schumann and Brahms is well known, but if memory serves Schumann spoke of him a composer of great promise rather than of specific achievements. So I agree he's a good candidate, but I'm not sure if his symphonies influenced either.
Instead, I would like to nominate Franz Schubert for this category since his great C-major symphony (variously 7, 8, or 9) was first performed in 1839 (published 1840). I'm not sure if any symphony between Beethoven's 9th and that premier had such an impact.
Judging from it's opus number, F. Hiller's published symphony was written after 1850.
Outside of Germany/Austria, but definitely within their cultural periphery, some of the most interesting symphonies from the '30s and '40s were being written by Berwald, don't you think?
Regarding JimL's reply 28: In April 1817 Schubert wrote three keyboard movements (D612, D613). Two are sonata form movements (with unnotated recaps), both developments showing a strong interest in concerto-like figurations; the slow movement revels in Fieldian filligree. It's a path Schubert didn't end up taking, but here he is exploring it.
I can't say to much about less-famous symphonies that are specifically German/Austrian from that period, but if you are looking for some other symphonies which were influenced a lot by German composers, the symphonies of Berwald and Farrenc are excellent.
Here is a list of composers from Germany/Austria/Bohemia ?, of symphonies, who may fall into this category - ( I haven't yet researched it ). Composers born after 1770 (Beethoven's birth), & up until 1838, presuming that none (in this list), would have written symphonies before age 12 !(hence the 1838) Of course there may be some exceptions, and some wrote their symphonies before 1827,but this list may stimulate some more discussion:
A.J.Reicha (Bohemia) 1770-1836, C.G.A.Bergt (SaxonyO1772-1837, J.W.Tomaschek (1) (1774-1850), Ignaz Seyfried (Austria) 1776-1841), Franz Weiss (Austria) (1778-1830), Ferdinand Ries (Germany) 1784-1838), Louis Spohr (Germany) (1784-1859), J.C.F.Schneider (Germany) (1786-1853), C.M von Weber, (Germany) (1786-1826) - (doesn't quite qualify). F.E.Fesca (Germany) (1789-1826) (same as Weber), A.Huttenbrenner (Germany) (1794-1868), J.B.Birnbach (Germany) (1795-1879), Franz Schubert (Germany) (1797-1828) (just made it ?), K.G.Reissiger (Germany) (1798-1859), J.W.Kalliwoda, (Bohemia) 1801-1860), W.B.Molique (Germany) (1802-1869), F.Lachner (Germany) (1803-1890), J.Benedict (Germany/England) ( 1804-1885), H.L.E.Dorn (1) (Germany) (1804-1892), J.F.Kittl (Bohemia) (1806-1868), F.Mendelssohn (Germany) (1809-1847), A.F.Hesse (Germany) (18009-1863), N.Burgmuller (Germany) (1810-1836), F.David (Germany) (1810-1873), R.Schumann (Germany) ( 1810-1856), K.J.Becker (1) (Germany) (1811-1859), F.Hiller, (Germany) (1811-1885), F.Liszt (Germany) (1811-1886) (after 1850?), V.Lachner, (Germany) (1811-1893), K.G.W.Taubert, (Germany) (1811-1891), H.Hirschbach (Germany) (1812-1888), J.Reitz (Germany) (1812-1877), C.G.P Gradener (Germany) ( 1812-1883), R.Wagner (Germany) (1813-1883), F.R.volkmann (Germany) ( 1815-1883),F.Spindler (Germany) (1817-1906), H.Esser (Germany) (1818-1872), A.Conradi (Germany) (1821-1873), J.J.Raff (Germany) (1822-1882), S.Bagge (1) (Germany) (1823-1896), K.J.Bischoff (Germany) (1823-1893), A.Bruckner (Austria) (1824-1896), G.E.Goltermann (Germany) (1824-1898), C.H.C.Reinecke (Germany) (1824-1910), A.von Doss (Austria) (1825-1886), L.Ehlert (Germany) (1825-1884) (pupil of Schumann & wrote a Spring symphony), J.J.Bott (Germany) (1826-1895), E.Buchner (Germany) (1826- ?), A.Fischer (Germany) (1827-1893), W.Bargiel (1) (Germany) (1828-1897)(symphony in C), A.H.Dietrich (Germany) (1) (1829-1908), H von Bronsart (Germany) (1830-1913) ( 2 symphonies entitled In the Alps, Powers of Fate), S.jadassohn (Germany) (1831-1902), J.J.Abert (Bohemia) (1832-1915), L.Damrosch (Germany) (1832-1885), K goldmark (Germany) (1832-1915), O.Bach (Austria) (1833-1893), F.Bendel (Bohemia) ( 1833-1874), J.Brahms (Geramany) (1833-1897) (definately a non-qualifier), A.E.A.Becker (Germany) (1834-1899) (a symphony in G minor), F.A.B.Draeseke (Germany) (1835-1913), R.Emmerich (Germany) (1836-1891), H.Schulz-Beuthen (Austria) (1838- 1915).
There are obviously many more names to be added here, but this is a fair selection. There are no English, Dutch,Belgian, French composers listed although some spent years away from Germany/Austria. Germany covers alot of territory, ,so some imagination is necessary. I included Bohemia because of its close assocaiation with major German composers of the time. Many of these composers, particularly those born after 1825 would not qualify, but I list them just in case someone can refute that. My main sources here are "The Story of the Symphony, E.Markham- Lee (publ.1915), & some other information from Cyclopedia Music & Musicians,Oscar Thompson (1975) ,Baker's Biographical Dictionary Composers & Musicians (1988), & W.Pratt's History of Music (1907)& The New Encyclopedia of Music & Musicians (1934).
As my main interest is the symphony, I am about to compile a list of composers from1750 to the present, but particularly between 1770 and 1910. this may take years, but hopefully I'll live long enough !
I hope I haven't put anyone to sleep , but if I have, happy dreams !
Cheers !
Marcus.
In addition to my previous list:
Carl Loewe's Symphony in D minor (1831) recorded on the old Koch label.
Also not forgetting the Tyrolean symphonists :
J.Rufinatscha (1812-1893), J.B.Gansbacher (1778-1844), J.Netzer (1808-1864), M.Nagiller (1815-1875).
L.S.Meinardus (Germany) (1827-1896), wrote two symphonies which were highly praised by Franz Liszt.
I have a further list of 30 + ,but I think I have probably caused enough confusion for now.
Cheers!
I think that Loewe composed at least one other symphony. I have that old Koch CD (with the 2nd PC) and IIRC, the liner notes mentioned that the D Minor Symphony was his 2nd. Of course, ICBM.
Yes, Loewe has two symphonies to his credit. The D minor, which was available on Koch, is his First. The Second (in E minor) was performed in 2004 in Germany and the live concert broadcast. It's a very attractive, vigorous work.
Would Louise Farrenc (1804–1875) fit in here. She certainly fits the time span except she wasn't German! She seems to have written 3 symphonies.... 1842, 1845, 1847.
Walter Frisch, Brahms: The Four Symphonies, has an interesting list of symphonists presumably known to Brahms. Though mostly outside the parameters of this thread (the list begins in 1851), the dates given are publication dates so that some of the earlier symphonies were undoubtedly played in the 1840s. (For example, Spohr's 8th symphony was published 1854, his 9th the previous year.)
As publishers expected some return on investment, inclusion in the list probably measures at least of some degree of historical importance, and there are some intriguing names on it from the Mendelssohn generation: Kufferath, Goltermann, Verhulst, Esser, Rietz, among others.
Frisch's book is available in preview (and the list can be viewed in full) on Google Books. It's on pp. 7-10.
The very positive reception of Nicolai's two symphonies from the 1830s together with his pivotal role in founding and directing the precursor to the Vienna Philharmonic gives his work special interest, too, I believe.