Hi all,
Let's just park whatever we think of identity politics and "female compositions" as a valid category, and allow ourselves to be opportunistic. The introduction of works composed by female composers we see these days is a repertory innovation unlike any I've witnessed before. And it seems to me that this disruption of a iron repertory that has been cast into concrete for almost a century is something we can, and perhaps need to, exploit for our own nefarious ends.
First, in talking about the "female canon" as it is taking shape. Whereas early introductions of female composers appear to have been shaped mainly by connections to their male husband/brothers (and yes, I'm speaking specifically of Clara Wieck and Fanny Mendelssohn), modern performances don't seem to be a continuation of that trend. Predictably, composers with a large and broader body of work seem to feature more prominiently than the "one-offs", but a lot is still undecided.
Therefore: where do you think this movement is heading, and if it causes a fundamental disruption of the iron concert repertory, do you see chance for other "unsungs" to gain admittance as well?
There is a gathering 'female canon', no doubt. And yes, this is an opportunity for the promotion of neglected repertoire in general. However, I have one caveat: might the exploration of music by women actually lead to the further neglect of more deserving repertoire by men?
Just saying...
Quote from: Ilja on Thursday 15 August 2024, 18:24Therefore: where do you think this movement is heading, and if it causes a fundamental disruption of the iron concert repertory, do you see chance for other "unsungs" to gain admittance as well?
1. I see no fundamental change in the repertory, just a few temporary additions dictated by ephemeral trends in identity politics.
2. I also see no general trends, just a changing lineup based on the relative strength of competing special interests.
3. Because these trends are based on the identity politics of grievance, only members of an aggrieved group can expect temporary admittance to the concert hall. Since most unsungs are DWEMs, the very antithesis of diversity, we should expect even fewer appearances by unjustly neglected composers of quality because the number of available places is limited by the very tokenism of the current movement. Chaminade and Coleridge-Taylor will slip through (they each have an aggrieved union card), but Raff, Draeseke, and the rest of the gang can expect nothing. Remember, the goal is not to explore unjustly neglected music (that's *our* goal), but to satisfy the mandates of grievance. It's not about the music.
The intention here was to leave grievances behind and see what opportunities there are to suggest changes to the concert hall repertory. There is movement, and I believe it is fundamental. Not perhaps (for now) with regard to the Beethovens and Brahmses, but the emphasis of programmes is definitely shifting when it comes to "second tier" composers. The establishment of a female canon in itself can offer us insight into how these processes work in our time, and use them for our own nefarious ends.
Probably about right, John. But recordings are (somewhat) different. As Mark T. has often said, we're living through a golden age of untold riches in terms of neglected repertoire. No, it's never going to make any impact on concert-going, but I live 70 miles from London, I'm not in the best of health these days and I don't much care any more. As long as recordings continue to be made in whatever format, I'll be satisfied.
Now for those Thieriot symphonies - and all those gems unearthed and so superbly rendered by our friend Reverie. In the words of Delia Smith (well, almost); 'cpo, Chandos, Hyperion, where are you? Let's be 'aving you...!'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiC679ASOyA
Ilja's point, which is a good one, is to ask how the trend in programming female composers can be exploited to benefit unsung music in general. My pessimistic response, however, was that the trend is so driven by politics and not by the quality of the music that we cannot expect a general benefit to most unsung composers unless they fall under the remit of a politically minded revival.
Mark and Alan are right to note this golden age of recorded unsungs, but I think that trend predates and is separate from the one that Ilja mentioned and that he hopes can be used for the benefit of all unsung composers.
In short, while Ilja is right to see the programming of female composers as an opportunity, I think its political motivation precludes a general unsung reappraisal.
I simply see an expansion of the recorded repertoire in a new direction - and we have already made very clear (e.g. in the case of Florence Price) what we think about one particular female composer's newly elevated status. I very much doubt whether there's going to be a sustained tsunami of recordings by female composers because I don't think one exists.
Take the example of the recent Augusta Holmès recordings on cpo. Is it great music? No. Is it worth recording - well, yes. Will it make the concert repertoire? No. So we're left with (mere) recordings. Perhaps that's good enough. In fact, it's probably about right.
May I suggest that the overriding purpose of this forum is to seek out, assess and commend music irrespective of the identity of its composer? If we do this, we will avoid jumping on bandwagons - indeed, we will expose them for what they are. That probably means that we'll swim against a multitude of tides. But I think that we, collectively, have the experience, ability and courage to do so - even (or perhaps especially) when we disagree.
Yes, political motivation is a bad thing, that's why musical series like "Entartete Musik" don't deserve our support...
I think there's more than a political angle to 'Entartete Musik', though, because the result of the politics (in, for example, the Hitler period) was worthwhile music being suppressed or destroyed and composers being persecuted or murdered, mostly on account of their ethnic background. In other words, there are surely artistic and moral reasons to support music that falls into this category - providing it's of good quality, of course. We can leave the politics to others.
Anyway, I don't think we should go down this particular rabbit-hole any further as most of the music concerned actually falls outside our remit.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Thursday 15 August 2024, 20:00I'm not in the best of health these days and I don't much care any more. As long as recordings continue to be made in whatever format, I'll be satisfied.
I'm distressed to hear this. I hope things can be stabilized if not improved for you. I do appreciate this site and your importance to its maintenance.
Very kind of you to say so. I'll do my best!
Quote from: John Boyer on Thursday 15 August 2024, 20:43In short, while Ilja is right to see the programming of female composers as an opportunity, I think its political motivation precludes a general unsung reappraisal.
Basically, sad to say, I'm with John in his assessment, certainly as far as concert performances are concerned. Special pleading for historical women composers can almost be placed alongside programming of new commissions and the music of living composers as something which concert promoters now have to allow for in their programming to attract arts funding, if not audiences who, I imagine, will remain essentially conservative. That can only further reduce the opportunities for unsung compositions by DWEMs (thanks for the acronym, John!) except where there's a local connection to the composer (Raff in Switzerland for example).
That said, I don't detect any fall off in new recordings of music by DWEM unsungs.
The "political" addition of women composers and composers of colour to the repertoire is most noticeable to me less in new commercial recordings than in broadcasting where BBC Radio 3, for example, quite clearly has a daily quota to fill, and it does so from recordings which, in many cases, have been around for quite a few years and have already formed part of the welcome explosion of "unsung" recordings in the last decade or so. Clara Schumann, Fanny Mendelssohn, Samuel Coleridge-Taylor, Louise Farrenc and Emilie Mayer are all examples of composers who were being recorded on their merits well before it became politically expedient to give them air or concert hall time. Florence Price is the most glaring example of those who were not.
My comment was meant as sarcasm in any case. I'd also agree that there has been no such noticeable falloff.
There's also the question of what diversity/inclusion means in the context of whatever is being discussed, in this case classical music. I would argue that the classical music of many countries in Europe has historically been ignored (not necessarily deliberately) because those countries were outside the mainstream or even looked down on as backward/provincial/uncivilised. Unfortunately today's drive for inclusion excludes (male) composers from those countries because a composer from (say) Estonia or Ireland is lumped into "DWEM", even though his music never had any kind of look-in in the first place. And so they find themselves, once again, neglected.
Agreed. The only criterion should be whether the music is worth rediscovering (some isn't!), irrespective of who wrote it.
Unfortunately that sort of objective criteria has been abandoned generally, not just in music, in the modern liberal societies in which most of us live, so that's a total non-starter.
Returning to Ilja's original proposal, this might be the time to promote female composers that have fallen by the wayside but who have not yet been taken up in the current wave of interest in women composers. For example, I haven't heard too much in the way of a revival Chaminade, who I think deserves better. I also recently encountered the music of Maria Herz, who I think lies just outside the remit of our board but who is a good example of a composer who is worth investigating and whose chances are slightly higher right now. Ilja is right to suggest taking advantage of things while you can.
Act now! This is a limited-time offer! Operators are standing by!
Before you know it will be too late because the fad will have passed. "Chaminade? Because she was a girl? Oh, John...that's *so* 2024. We've moved on from that."
(Leo Strauss has entered the chat, apparently.)
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Friday 16 August 2024, 14:05Unfortunately that sort of objective criteria has been abandoned generally, not just in music, in the modern liberal societies in which most of us live, so that's a total non-starter.
I think we can give it a fair go here. Between us we have the experience to come to some sort of reasoned judgment as to the worth of most of the music we encounter here.
I'm currently listening to Loewe's Symphony in D minor: we were right to highlight its virtues a couple of years back, and I guess Nick Barnard came to roughly the same conclusion:
In many ways this disc is an encapsulation of the sterling work that CPO has been doing over decades resurrecting the work of unknown or at least under-appreciated composers in musical impressive and technically accomplished recordings. I had no idea that Carl Loewe had written music like this. Apparently there was a recording of the D minor symphony on Koch-Swann (coupled with his A major piano concerto) which I have not heard and in any case that seems to be all but impossible to find copies of. Even if it were available, I would find it hard to believe that performance would supplant those given here. Once one accepts the choice of the HIP influenced style this is about as good as it could get with the music presented in the best possible light. Loewe's symphonies are not towering masterpieces but neither do they claim to be. However, if you enjoy early Romantic symphonies of genuine appeal and attractive musical content, there is much to enjoy.
There are evidently sensible people out there who agree with us.
I think while the most prominent addition of new voices is certainly politically motivated, that is something different from the fact that these new voices are added to a canon that has been mostly petrified for decades. I'm more optimistic on that count, since we have already seen some shifts over past years, most notably the inclusion of national composers. Also, it is interesting to see
which female composers gain entry and with what motivation. Because whatever you think about it, it is probably the biggest disruption of the concert repertory (which, by the way, is not something which I consider to be a gold standard of any sort) that we are likely to witness during our lifetime.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Thursday 15 August 2024, 22:48I think there's more than a political angle to 'Entartete Musik', though, because the result of the politics (in, for example, the Hitler period) was worthwhile music being suppressed or destroyed and composers being persecuted or murdered, mostly on account of their ethnic background. In other words, there are surely artistic and moral reasons to support music that falls into this category - providing it's of good quality, of course. We can leave the politics to others.
An aspect that should not be forgotten, and which I think remains within our remit is that the Entartete Musik project only reveals part of the story. Whole swathes of long established, romantic "suspect" music were banned by the Nazis (and other totalitarian regimes) on account of their composers' origins in the 1930s, and never taken up again after World War II. And the casualness with which I can still hear some people talk about certain music being "unworthy" of performance doesn't sound all that different.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Friday 16 August 2024, 17:28I think we can give it a fair go here.
Oh, I quite agree.
Here, yes, but just don't expect it in the wider musical world.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Friday 16 August 2024, 21:25but just don't expect it in the wider musical world.
It depends where you look. There are islands of enlightened journalism 'out there' and individual trailblazers doing excellent spadework. Think Howard Griffiths - and Schweizer Fonogramm.
I realise, though, that 'islands' of good practice aren't exactly 'the wider musical world'. But we plough on, don't we?
Ilja: seconded.
It's all in the details, as always- I won't begrudge well-played well-chosen encores any more than anyone else, of course and have sometimes actually received just that.
Out of curiosity, did Celibidache premiere unsung music, as Commissiona (with whom I unaccountably manage to confuse him name-wise) certainly did (not perhaps music within our remit, but still-unsung but worthy all the same)?
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Friday 16 August 2024, 14:05Unfortunately that sort of objective criteria has been abandoned generally, not just in music, in the modern liberal societies in which most of us live, so that's a total non-starter.
I don't think that's fair, in fact it seems to me to insult this very forum.
Though I would say I have noticed a greater insistence on standards for "DEI" composers than for our "standard" persons of interest. A few posts above I find praise of a Loewe symphony. Is it any more attractive than those of Emilie Mayer? Not in my ears, maybe rather the opposite.
Anyway, if the price for living in a liberal society is some artists being overvalued I'd say it's well worth it.
Quote from: Double-A on Sunday 18 August 2024, 23:14I don't think that's fair, in fact it seems to me to insult this very forum.
There is a significant difference between the willingness to consider neglected repertoire on this forum and the closed-minded attitude of concert-promoters, many critics and much journalism.
In the US at least, where it seems fair to say that our orchestras barely perform even Bruckner outside his anniversary year (and not much then), there's little chance of the repertory being expanded in favor of anyone for any length of time.
Quote from: Double-A on Sunday 18 August 2024, 23:14Anyway, if the price for living in a liberal society is some artists being overvalued I'd say it's well worth it.
I completely agree with this sentiment and, for the record, I regard this forum as a blessed island of objectivity. As its founder, I'm hardly going to insult its members.
Well said, Mark.
Quote from: eschiss1 on Sunday 18 August 2024, 23:32In the US at least, where it seems fair to say that our orchestras barely perform even Bruckner outside his anniversary year (and not much then), there's little chance of the repertory being expanded in favor of anyone for any length of time.
Eric, would you say that Bruckner is really that badly ignored here in the states? It seems to me that the major orchestras perform something by him every year, but that may just be a perception. I could look it up, but something tells me you have those performance statistics at your fingertips and would know more quickly and better.
If he does get ignored in the provinces, I think there are a few understandable reasons for this:
First, Bruckner is not a crowd pleaser. He's a tough nut to crack, so I can imagine conductors outside of New York or Boston being reluctant to take a chance on him.
Second, there is the expense of performing him. All those extra winds, horns, and Wagner tubas place a strain on a regional orchestra's budget, especially to play a composer whose name is likely to cause the faint of heart to stay home.
Third, even if there were greater interest in him there's only so much Bruckner out there to play. When we think of him, we likely think of the nine symphonies and not too much else, even if there are other things. You can only play those nine so many times.
I'm curious what you think. Perhaps I'm remembering how things were 15 years ago, back when I still attended performances.
You may be right, and Google suggests you are; probably a poorly-chosen example. I know that when I saw that the Binghamton Philharmonic was planning on performing his 6th later this year, I thought "that may be the first time that a Bruckner orchestral work has been played in upstate NY in ages." (And I may be wrong about that, too.) I do think it's safe to say that the orchestral repertory here is thinner, on the whole; when Sibelius 3 was performed (very very well...) here by a Ukrainian orchestra not long ago that also felt like a rare event even though the work itself is hardly a rarity of itself. Etc. (More of an actual rarity would be the two works by Mel Bonis programmed lately - one recently, one coming up - in chamber concerts in my small city, but those are often better in regard to repertoire than orchestral ones.)
Edit: undeniably the larger cities- e.g. NYC, which I visit occasionally- are better in this regard- though not a patch on London, in my opinion (though I've only been there twice. But then I was born near NYC...)
Quote from: eschiss1 on Tuesday 20 August 2024, 01:50I do think it's safe to say that the orchestral repertory here is thinner, on the whole; when Sibelius 3 was performed (very very well...) here by a Ukrainian orchestra not long ago that also felt like a rare event even though the work itself is hardly a rarity of itself.
It's funny you mentioned Sibelius 3 because that would be a rare event in my parts too. Indeed, it occurs to me I have never heard in concert a Sibelius symphony other than #2, which is trotted out again and again here to the exclusion of the others. Of local Bruckner I've only heard the fourth, though I am pretty sure some of the others have been done, but that's over a span of 20 years.
Anyway, with an established composer like Sibelius being treated almost like an unsung -- at least in the provinces -- it does make you wonder what hope real unsungs have, even when windows of opportunity are opened like female programming. The former conductor of Springfield told me that he wanted to do Reger but said that every time he did something out of the ordinary he could count another two or three hundred empty seats in the hall.