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There is a very extant Bauernfänger, though...

"Monumental" in orchestral music always brings to me memories of climaxes that involve the building and resolution of extreme tension.  To cite a famous example of what I might consider monumental would be the finale of F.J. Haydn's Drumroll Symphony.  A less famous example would be several passages in the first movement of Ries's 5th Symphony, where the tension reaches levels that I consider almost unbearably intense (in a good way); without ever knowing how other people viewed "monumental" in music, I always thought of this as one of the most monumental movements of any symphony I'd ever heard.  Like a truly epic monument, such as viewing Mt. Everest from a distance while it's surrounded by clouds or something.  You get all the incredible sights and beauty without having to experience the temperature, rain, or wind (or lack of air, though I remember Ries's 5th Symphony did almost take my breath away the first time I heard its first movement).

One time, on another message board, someone asked who people thought the greatest symphonist of all time was, and I joked "Beethoven".  As someone heavily sunk into music of the late 18th century, it's always struck my ears that Beethoven's overall orchestration texture (?) in his earlier symphonies sounds very French-1790s.  For example, listen to the opening of Grétry's Richard Coeur-de-lion of 1784, or Cherubini as mentioned.  Cherubini surely has to be counted as French, at least as a composer.

As for the double orchestra stuff, J.C. Bach composed several double-orchestra symphonies and opera overtures, the most famous of which is probably the Symphony in E-Flat, Op.18#1.

Certainly, in the field of opera one of the best known composer rivalries has to be between Mozart and Salieri. Ironically, Mozart's son, Franz Xaver Mozart had Salieri as one of his teachers. In the early 19th Century there must certainly have been some rivalry between pianist composers such as Ignaz Moschelles and John Field.

The W.A. Mozart - Salieri rivalry was a myth. Pushkin wanted to write a play and knew about Mozart's rivalry with Leopold Kozeluch, a very minor affair that wasn't particularly heated at all from what I can tell.  However, at the time, Salieri was still quite famous, while Kozeluch was not, so the names were switched.  We have to remember that for a while, Salieri sat astride the European musical world in probably the most lucrative position that existed.  Possibly the most prestigious art-related job in the entire world, for that matter.  In 1786, a magazine said: "It is no secret that Herr Leopold Kozeluch competes with Mozart.".  Maybe Mozart shouldn't have written music for one of Kozeluch's pupils... but at that time, a rivalry basically meant competing for attention and favour at schmoozing events and parties of nobles.  In addition, Kozeluch famously also rubbed Beethoven and F.J. Haydn the wrong way, so I'd guess there was no specific rivalry here at all.  One of Mozart's friends also made mention somewhere that he knew not to mention Kozeluch in Mozart's presence.

I wonder if the Russia-based Field ever had much contact with Moscheles. Maybe they never even met. Maybe one or both never heard a note of the other's music? Unlikely, I suppose, but still, in those days it wasn't like you could download it.

Of course from our historical perspective we know that they were wrong,but how can we be sure we are right?

How can an opinion or taste be right or wrong?

I'd like to toss Samuel Coleridge-Taylor's Romance in G for Violin and Orchestra into the mix. That might be my personal favourite "Romance for x and Orchestra". I think the natural feel of his orchestration in general was well-suited to this type of work anyway. Not to mention, when he was on form, Coleridge-Taylor sure could pen down a good tune, which he certainly did here.

I wouldn't say that Farrenc is "better" than composers like Berlioz.

I would!!!

I wouldn't say that Farrenc is "better" than composers like Raff.

Neither would I.


It's all opinion!
But I have to say, Farrenc's symphonies are pretty incredible in my opinion book. A book which is going on sale for 2 US cents this week.

Well, I seem to be the only one to see any charm in those works.
What about other orchestral works by C-T, such as the violin concerto and the Variations on an African Air?

Guess again! Well, I can't speak to the Cowen, as I've never heard it, but I actually kinda like Coleridge-Taylor's early symphony. Maybe it makes me seem like an idiot, but good tunes are enough for me to give a work at least a better than mediocre score. I'm a sucker for a melody that strikes my fancy, and I don't deny it. I like those other works you mention as well, especially the Violin Concerto. Oddly, when I bought a CD with that concerto on it, I ended up liking the work paired with it (Somervell) even more! The number of orchestral works from the 20th century that I like is somewhat limited, so this is more odd than you might think, in my case.

I think Coleridge-Taylor had a real gift for melody, and I'd like to have heard him attempt another symphony in the fullness of his powers. He died young, otherwise we might very well have been gifted with such a work. I do feel he's worthy of more attention than he receives, and I'm glad that so many of his works (relatively speaking) have been recorded in the last few years. I doubt his one and only symphony will ever become all that popular, but I forgive it much for its enthusiasm and tunefulness. I just love the way that thing opens, and I think, considering that it really is a student work, the orchestration of the first movement is pretty impressive, if nothing else. This is one that stuck with me after the first hearing. But I have to confess, it does tend to ramble at times.

So you're not alone!

PS: Have you ever heard his Romance in G for Violin and Orchestra? If not, you really need to get the Rachel Barton CD that contains that and possibly my favourite violin concerto of all time, that in F-sharp minor by José White Lafitte.

[Symphony #2 in A minor (1893)]

Here's one completely new to me!  Unfortunately, I can't really comment very much, but it was so out of the ordinary that I wanted to share it here.  I normally try to avoid basically empty posts (which is why I haven't said anything here at all recently), but this just seems pretty rare.  No, this symphony doesn't blow me away, but I don't think it completely sucks.

Symphony #2 in A minor  (1893)
I. Moderato (PART1; split into two videos)
I. Moderato (PART2)
II. Andante
III. Presto
IV. Allegro risoluto

What about Jirí Antonin Benda's Harpsichord Concerto in G Major? That certainly predates Beethoven's 3rd Symphony by a large number of years. I'm not sure Beethoven was even born when that was composed, or at least he was fairly young at the time.

Grove also apparently said Beethoven wrote the first symphony that employed trombones, so I definitely am not going to consider trusting his word to be a requirement. Oh, and didn't he also write that Saint-Saëns wrote the first French piano concerto?! Even as I type this, I started up Boïeldieu's Piano Concerto, written before Saint-Saëns was even born. To be fair, I don't recall if it was Grove himself that wrote that, but I have seen that stated repeatedly by experts; one who e-mailed me back when I tried to correct his website cited Grove's as his source.

I once came up with a guideline, a formula of sorts:

For any statement "(x) was the first composer to do (y)", where (x) is the name of a famous composer, the statement is sure to be false.


I know that can't be 100% true, but I'm just trying to make a point.

Thanks for the correction on that.  I've mixed the chronology of that relationship up before.  Maybe it'll finally sink in!  But, considering my brain, probably not...  It is a nice symphony, and I have two different recordings of it: one conducted by Toscanini, the other on cpo (the better one).  Its reduced form is also my favourite of the string quartets.  Toscanini apparently had something of a taste for this symphony, or so these liner notes say, but he seemed to feel like he had to attempt to transform it into a 20th century work by any means possible.  Not to mention, the sound quality on this recording is bordering on being an atrocity, and I consider it virtually unlistenable.

Was Cherubini underappreciated (perhaps "unsung") at the time making him no threat to Beethoven's supremacy?

Cherubini was a major musical figure of the time, almost certainly more influential on the music world than Beethoven during Beethoven's own lifetime.  I think Beethoven was influenced by Lodoïska in particular when going to work on Leonore.  It's a pretty impressive opera.  Beethoven also singled out other Cherubini works for praise and personal influence, especially the C minor Requiem.

Cherubini was, for a time, Napoleon's top music guy, though Napoleon thought his music was too complicated.  Rossini and Chopin also seem to have thought highly of Cherubini.

I wish I could go to bat very strongly for Cherubini, but though I like his music, with a few exceptions, I'm not really in love with it. But I haven't heard all that much, to be honest.  The string quartets are nice, and I like the symphony (which is a fully orchestrated version of one of the quartets).  I like two of his operas in particular, but the other (I forget which) was merely okay to me.  How much of his stuff has been recorded, all told?  There's a lot of duplication in Cherubini releases.

[bad]

I actually got a complete set of his symphonies, his two string quartets (I think either he only wrote 2, or only 2 survive), Elverskud, a piece for clarinet+piano, the oratorio (?) Kalanus, and some other stuff. Oh yeah, his Violin Concerto.

Of all the symphonies, I think the best are 1 and 5.  To be frank, in my opinion, while none of them are what I'd call bad, only 1 and 5 are particularly good.  Most especially, the first movement of each.  #5 is often noticed because it employs a piano, but that's not the only thing that makes it good; I think it'd be a very nice symphony even without the piano, but it certainly does add to the interest, and Gade uses it well.  Probably, as a whole, #1 is my favourite.

The two string quartets I have are performed by the Cailin Quartet, a group I don't remember hearing of anywhere else.  The A Major quartet has three movements, while the E minor has the usual four.  They're both adequate, though the first movement of the A Major lasts longer than its material warrants.  I have never given either work but a single complete listen, but I don't remember being turned off... then again, I don't remember being turned on, either.

The work for clarinet&piano has a really ear-catching opening.  I couldn't hum it to you now, but I do remember it made a fairly pleasant impression.  I had to check to get what it was: Fantasiestucke for Clarinet and Piano, Op.43.  Yep, got it playing again now.  Not half-bad!  Clarinet+piano is not one of my favourite combinations, but it's not too long (around 11 minutes), and is really nice.  Not something I wake up in the morning with a sudden urge to hear again, but if it's on, I enjoy it.

As far as Elverskud goes, the pastoral movements are really worth a listen.  I've got to be honest and point out that I've never listened to 100% of this work.  I just couldn't wade all the way through it.

Kalanus is another chorus+orchestra piece that's on another plane. I was very impressed with it.  I think throughout it's hour+ duration, it ranges from slightly good to very good.  May not be everyone's cup of tea, but I definitely am not disappointed.  I don't know what it is about it, but I think it's very effective, and a bit imposing (in a good way) with its... subdued dramatisation?  I'm not sure what words can convey it.  Majestic might be a good adjective.  But not usually loud and bombastic, more like noble majesty.

As for the Violin Concerto, some people like it pretty well, but sadly I'm not among them.  I like it a little bit, but I doubt I'll ever give it another full listen.

Recommended?  I suppose I would, selectively.  Clearly, all of the above is only my opinion, and you'd have to know my personal tastes to recognise whether or not my suggestions would have a reasonable chance of helping you out.

My picks: Kalanus, Symphony #1, Symphony #5

Berwald's first symphony received its first performance in 1820. The majority of the first movement survives, and the rest may still be out there somewhere. His once-believed-lost bassoon Konzertstück written not long after is around, though I don't think that it's been recorded.

The first movement of his first symphony already contains the bizarre uniqueness you'd expect. Sounds like it was written in 1830, or maybe even later. And that was the harsh criticism it received, that it was too experimental. He did write instructions to his sister that this symphony should not be performed, but that clearly indicates that he didn't destroy it. Let's hope for a full recovery, since the first movement is pleasant and, in a lot of ways, probably important from an "ahead of its time" historical standpoint.

I've been thinking off and on for months on end about whether or not to get any of the Netzer CDs from that museum. The recorded Rufinatscha symphonies - and I do mean all of them - are absolutely outstanding in my book. Yes, even my least favourite #1 is a fine piece of work as far as I'm concerned. But I hate everything Bruckner ever touched, including Beethoven's desecrated skull. If Netzer sounds anything like noise from that bloatedly-famous clunker, I'll pass.

I am not familiar with those works. I have a disc of Czerny's 3 sonatas for piano 4 hands, which I find disappointingly dull, and therefore I have not been encouraged to explore him further.

Off-topic, but... you'll be missing out on Czerny's monumental symphonies 1&5 if you do this.  The scherzo of each of these symphonies in particular is outstanding.  Like Clementi before him, he was known for the piano but was better with the orchestra. In my opinion, of course; though I love Clementi's solo piano music, I don't care that much for Czerny's, with a handful of exceptions.