Music, but not for amusement

[Alan Howe]

The problem was that, for years, you couldn't avoid the Gorecki. Every time you turned on the radio in the car hoping for something to while away a car journey, there was this mournful, repetitive music. Dreadful. Anyway, it's not for me - but if it floats your musical boat, then far be it from me to criticise...

[Peter1953]

Dear Raffians!

With great interest I read the pros and cons of both works in the discussion. But both works have something in common, and that is World War Two. Messiaen composed his work in the Nazi camp, and Górecki was influenced by the moving words of the 18-year-old girl scratched on a wall in a Gestapo prison. I strongly believe that these facts are the reason why these particular works of Messiaen and Górecki sound so monotonous. But poignant. They reflect an agony.

[sdtom]

Good point Peter!!!
Thomas

[Ilja]

Amphissa, I wouldn't like to call Ravel's Bolero 'repetitive' at all, and certainly not 'minimalist'. To be sure, it has repetitive elements, but in  minimalist music the orchestration is usually paired down as well (look at Reich, for instance) and you coulnd't really say that of the Bolero. I've always been amazed of the immediate effect the Boléro can have, but the repetitive elements are just part of a powerful mix.

In general, I much appreciate many works by Nyman, Wim Mertens (now there's someone in need of recognition), Reich (the really minimal stuff) and Glass (particularly his film scores). The Pärt/Gorécki school I have some trouble with, mostly because of its heavy, unrelenting seriousness which only has a short gap to clear towards pretentiousness. Kancheli may be the exception: his scores generally are a bit more diverse, which makes them so much easier to enjoy.

[Hovite]

With great interest I read the pros and cons of both works in the discussion. But both works have something in common, and that is World War Two. Messiaen composed his work in the Nazi camp, and Górecki was influenced by the moving words of the 18-year-old girl scratched on a wall in a Gestapo prison. I strongly believe that these facts are the reason why these particular works of Messiaen and Górecki sound so monotonous. But poignant. They reflect an agony.

Messiaen is not to my taste, but I am not familiar with the specific work.

Górecki's 3rd Symphony is not great, but it is much better than his 2nd.

A work of similar origin is the 4th Symphony of Lees, "with a soprano setting of poems by one of the survivors ... stark realism ... Fear, revulsion, anger ..." (Naxos 8.559002).

[Peter1953]

This week the Dutch public "Radio 4" broadcasts the Top 400 of Classical Music for the year 2009. The list is compiled by the listeners.

We find Messiaen's "Quatuor pour la fin du temps" on 118 and Górecki's 3rd on 121.

How about our hero's? Not even Raff's Cavatina, not even Rubinstein's Melody in F!
Does this say something about the Dutch listeners audience? Or are our unsung composers typically for connoisseurs like us? I suppose so.

[TerraEpon]

I imagine lists would be similar everywhere, with slight bias toward country.

[Ilja]

The Dutch composers I can find are Simeon ten Holt on No. 105 (Canto Ostinato) and Sweelinck on 270 (I think our Flemish brethren would object to me including Ockegem).

No Raff, but Ramirez' Missa Criolla has made it to #400. Typical...

[Gareth Vaughan]

May I just make clear that I do not find (nor did I imply) that minimalist music is vapid or naive. My comments were directed solely at Gorecki's 3rd symphony and they are my personal opinion.

[Peter1953]

I am very grafeful to every member who gave comments on both works. All comments, without exception, are valuable and make sense. We all have our personal thoughts and opinions, and that is good. Hovite gave an interesting addition by mentioning Benjamin Lees' Symphony #4 which also reflects World War Two.

The reason why I started this topic in the first place was because parts of both works were broadcasted on 4 May . That is in the Netherlands the day we commemorate our war victims. After hearing these intriguing music on the same day I thought: what is the opinion of the members? I am satisfied with every comment, because they are honest and varied.

After saying this, it's time to listen to a piece of music that every Raffian must love: Rufinatscha's 5th.