Was Beethoven right about Cherubini?

[John H White]

Beethoven apparently regarded Cherubini as the greatest of all his contemporaries. So far I'm only familiar with his 4 String quartets, his Symphony his Requiem Mass, which was much admired by his most difficult pupil at the Paris Conservatoire, Hector Berlioz. I would say that the quartets and the Symphony where well up to the standard of those produced by other Beethoven contemporaries at that time, such as Spohr, but certainly not in the same class as similar works by Beethoven himself or the later works of Schubert who, at that time would be completely unknown to Beethoven. However in the Requiem, I can hear certain stylistic trends that appeared later in the Choral finale of Beethoven's 9th Symphony. Unfortunately, not being into opera, I cannot say anything about Cherubini's not inconsiderable operatic output.

[Alan Howe]

For me Cherubini's greatest music is in his masses. As for whether he was the greatest of Beethoven's contemporaries, it's hard to say - but it's equally hard to think of anyone else...

[JimL]

I actually agree with Harold C. Schonberg's assessment of Cherubini.  He was an excellent technician, but he was harmonically so conservative that it is hard to really label him as an original in any way.

[edurban]

Try the amazing Coronation Mass for the otherwise wretched Charles the Tenth of France.  Wow.  Muti's recording has blazing brass and catches the drama that is often (ironically) missing in Cherubini's operas. 
Cherubini had the misfortune to be writing in a transitional period (the manditory dialogue in Medee is a handicap not overcome even by our friend Franz Paul Lachner's much later recitativi.)  While Cherubini's impulses (and often his plots) were Romantic, his language is Mozartian.  Alas, as a tunesmith, and probably as a human being, he did not have Mozart's emotional range.
That being said, he left a delightful symphony (there is a fine Toscanini recording) and numerous overtures where the Romantic feeling is sometimes more successfully expressed than in the operas that follow.  'Anacreon' is probably his best overture (those marvelous violin trills) and Karajan recorded a powerful, muscular performance that may convince you it is a masterpiece. 

[John H White]

Many thanks, folks, for those interesting insights into Cherubini's works. I shall now definitely need to get hold  of more recordings of his sacred music and overtures.
By the way, my renditions of the Symphony and the 2nd String Quartet derived there from can be found on the Noteworthy Scriptorium web site.

[monafam]

I read a biography about Beethoven last summer and I don't recall him having a lot of kind things to say about other composers.  Or, if he did, there was likely some pretty substantial negative things said about those composers. 

Was Cherubini underappreciated (perhaps "unsung") at the time making him no threat to Beethoven's supremacy?  Similar to a modern day rock, guitar virtuoso -- they often defer to some guitarist that nobody has ever heard of.   

My assessment of Beethoven's ego could be wrong, just thought I'd throw a couple of questions out there.

[John H White]

I believe that, in his later choral writing, Beethoven was actually influenced by Cherubini. Compare Cherubini's Requiem of 1816 with the choral finale of Beethoven's 9th Symphony, written some years later.

[Josh]

Was Cherubini underappreciated (perhaps "unsung") at the time making him no threat to Beethoven's supremacy?

Cherubini was a major musical figure of the time, almost certainly more influential on the music world than Beethoven during Beethoven's own lifetime.  I think Beethoven was influenced by Lodoïska in particular when going to work on Leonore.  It's a pretty impressive opera.  Beethoven also singled out other Cherubini works for praise and personal influence, especially the C minor Requiem.

Cherubini was, for a time, Napoleon's top music guy, though Napoleon thought his music was too complicated.  Rossini and Chopin also seem to have thought highly of Cherubini.

I wish I could go to bat very strongly for Cherubini, but though I like his music, with a few exceptions, I'm not really in love with it. But I haven't heard all that much, to be honest.  The string quartets are nice, and I like the symphony (which is a fully orchestrated version of one of the quartets).  I like two of his operas in particular, but the other (I forget which) was merely okay to me.  How much of his stuff has been recorded, all told?  There's a lot of duplication in Cherubini releases.

[monafam]

Thanks for providing additional information.  I'm obviously at fault here for not giving Cherubini his due -- "unsung" to me, which means I should probably ensure I get some of his music down the road.

....sure I step out on a limb and I'm way off.   

[smileyman]

Cherubin's quartets are competent enough, with a few moments that shine. His symphony is also competent, but not particularly outstanding. Where Cherubini really shines is in his vocal work, especially his Masses, all of which are superb.

[John H White]

I think  you are right about  the choral music Smileyman. I'm sure I can hear bits of his Requiem in the choral finale of Beethoven's 9th Symphony. By the way Josh, the Symphony came before the 2nd Quartet, much of which was derived from it some years later. Anyway, its nice to "see" two new faces on our friendly forum.

[Josh]

Thanks for the correction on that.  I've mixed the chronology of that relationship up before.  Maybe it'll finally sink in!  But, considering my brain, probably not...  It is a nice symphony, and I have two different recordings of it: one conducted by Toscanini, the other on cpo (the better one).  Its reduced form is also my favourite of the string quartets.  Toscanini apparently had something of a taste for this symphony, or so these liner notes say, but he seemed to feel like he had to attempt to transform it into a 20th century work by any means possible.  Not to mention, the sound quality on this recording is bordering on being an atrocity, and I consider it virtually unlistenable.