Ludwig Thuille

[semloh]

Sincere thanks for uploading this most enjoyable epitome of a Romantische Ouvertüre . 

There's a short piece about the composer and the works at:
http://www.americansymphony.org/concert_notes/romantic-overture-op-16-1899

Specifically:

Thuille's charming Romantische Ouvertüre ("Romantic Overture") was the result of a much more ambitious but ultimately unsuccessful project. Thuille's first opera, Teuerdank, is hobbled by Alexander Ritter's feeble libretto; most of the music is a pale imitation of Wagner's Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg. Wisely declining to publish Teuerdank after its initial production in 1897, Thuille rescued its sparkling introduction by separating it from the opera and giving it a new title. In the rechristened Romantische Ouvertüre, Thuille casts an affectionate backward glance towards the more innocent pre-Wagnerian romanticism of his beloved Schumann.

What a pity that such a fine piece of music is so brief. I wonder if its promise is fulfilled in the symphony? Is it worth adding to the 'must buy' list?

[Alan Howe]

The Romantische Ouvertüre (conducted by Botstein) can also be downloaded cheaply here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Romantic-Overture-Op-16/dp/B003U08F4A/ref=sr_1_35?ie=UTF8&qid=1357343288&s=dmusic&sr=1-35

[petershott@btinternet.com]

I guess, Semloh, your question 'is it a must-buy?' relates to the Overture, rather than to the Symphony?

However if you're asking about the Symphony (in F major and written in 1886) the plain unambiguous answer to: should I buy it? is - heavens, yes (and with no delay!)

I believe it has but one recording, and fortunately it happens to be a splendid one: Haydn Orchestra / Alun Francis (CPO 777 008-2), and it is c/w the Pf Cte in D major (1882) with Oliver Triendl. It is a lovely disc.

Both works thus date from fairly early in Thuille's compositional career.

If I had my way all of Thuille's works would be in receipt of good recordings, for in my view he is an immensely rewarding composer. I wonder what the operas are like? I suspect Teuerdank is considerably better than its reputation would have us believe. Maybe one day CPO might possibly....?

[edurban]

Until those CPO Thuille opera discs come along...a 1961 Austrian radio performance of Lobetanz:

http://www.operapassion.com/cd11192.html

A stop gap, but better than nothing,

David

[semloh]

........ if you're asking about the Symphony (in F major and written in 1886) the plain unambiguous answer to: should I buy it? is - heavens, yes (and with no delay!) .....

Thanks, Peter. Yes, I did mean the symphony, so that's definitely another to go on the 'must buy asap' list! 

[petershott@btinternet.com]

If you're a fellow with fine tastes then I safely predict you're in for a treat! Hope you enjoy it.

[Alan Howe]

I'd simply say of the Symphony that it's not a patch on, for example, those by d'Albert or Georg Schumann from the same generation of composers. By far the best part of it is the slow movement; but don't let me put anyone off purchasing it!

[eschiss1]

though it's not that but the Tempo di Menuetto (sic) that has been, occasionally, broadcast separately by the occasional radio station in the cpo recording (and will again on Radio Swiss Classic next Saturday early morning) - _maybe_ on account of brevity. (Though it's not exceptionally brief, at 6 minutes 46?, just briefer than the other items on the CD.)

[Mark Thomas]

I've been searching for the threads in which we discussed the recordings of both Thuille's Symphony and his Piano Concerto, and I can't find them. However I do recall my disappointment with each work. Pace Peter, I thought it pretty obvious that each is a student work. To my ears they sound like it, with over-long movements orchestrated in a surprisingly Mendelssohnian style and crafted from second-rate material. In a word: vapid. Not at all what you'd expect from the mature composer. Just my two penn'orth 

[Peter1953]

Maybe this thread: http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,249.15.html

[Mark Thomas]

Thanks, Peter the Younger. That's it.

[petershott@btinternet.com]

And that ever stalwart Peter the Elder remains steadfast and unashamably unrepentant. I listened again this evening to Thuille's symphony - and no, I'm certainly not going to eat my hat, for I consider it rather good!

It is almost a commonplace to award poor Thuille a pat on the head on account of some of the chamber music, and then to deride the orchestral music as derivative and even boring (ouch!) and to ignore the operas. True, I haven't heard the operas - but then I'm not sure if anyone else has, and thus we ought to maintain an open mind. They did after all attract some favourable notice in Thuille's lifetime, but then soon disappeared into oblivion.

But the symphony? Yes, of course it is derivative, and in fact quite strongly so. There is lots and lots of Schumann in it with more than a touch of Mendelssohn. But Thuille admired these composers, and it is hardly a crime to follow the style of one's masters. In my book we often attach far too much praise to that thing called 'originality', and forget that some pieces of thoroughly original music are actually quite risible and sometimes perfectly dreadful (more than a few examples of that in Liszt).

Yet on the positive side I find the symphony a wonderfully fluent work - the whole thing 'flows' in a satisfying way and I reckon Thuille to be a very fine craftsman. The slow movement I thought quite formidable and even majestic. And pure joy and high spirits break out in the final movement (it actually got me comparing it to final movements in no less than Dvorak).

Folk also dismiss the symphony as a 'student work'. But that is never sufficient to condemn a work, for some composers (but not Thuille) have written real masterpieces in their student years. And in point of fact, the symphony is not a student work at all. It was composed in 1886 when Thuille was in his mid-20s. He had graduated from Munich in 1882 (where he had been taught by Rheinberger), and was already teaching. Remembering he died young at the age of 46 in 1907, he developed a not inconsiderable reputation as a teacher and writer. His friendship with Strauss dated from 1877, and I would be surprised if Thuille did not pick up a trick or two from the young Strauss. He has a firm place in musical history.

Thus I think of Thuille as a wonderfully pleasing and fully competent composer, a kind of good and more than worthwhile second rater, and in some of the chamber music there are touches of a great composer. Consider the interplay between instruments in the Sextet - masterful stuff.

Ach, you wretched Thuille doubters! I can assure you that in years to come (hopefully a great many years) as my coffin is lowered into the ground you will hear a defiant voice inside proclaiming: Ha! Thuille matters!

In the meantime you might note that Naxos are due to release at the end of the month a disc of the complete music for violin and piano. Come on, it won't cost you much and you should give poor Thuille a fair chance!

[Alan Howe]

For me it's all fairly simple: the Symphony's an OK early work, but the symphonies of two comparable contemporaries such as d'Albert and Georg Schumann are both much stronger works - especially thematically. However, that in no way leads me to denigrate Thuille: far from it in fact, as anyone who has heard his more mature works can testify. It is no by no means patronising to point out that his later music - in whatever genre - is better than his earlier orchestral works. It's just a fact.

And by the way: the Naxos release of the violin sonatas is undoubtedly welcome, but don't expect too much of No.1. It's the ripe, passionate (and Straussian) No.2 from 1904 which is the really interesting piece. Marvellous stuff in fact - because it's fully mature Thuille. Indeed, it seems to me shameful that Strauss' own Violin Sonata, lovely though it is, receives so much attention when there's this superb sonata by Thuille awaiting the adventurous violinist. At the very least it's the most logical coupling I can think of for the Strauss...