Korngold Film scores

[Masterraro]

Surely 'the whole thing' must include what the music was written for - the film. I fail to see how a film score can compare to anything that Strauss (presumably Richard), Zemlinsky or Schreker produced - symphonic poems and film scores are in my view completely different genres.

[Alan Howe]

Surely 'the whole thing' must include what the music was written for - the film.

That's correct. And I have argued that before myself. But in reality there is no chance of this being done in optimum modern listening/watching conditions unless the score is re-recorded and the film put out on DVD/Blu-ray for home consumption.

As for the quality of the music, that's a matter of opinion. All I'll say at this point is that Korngold's film scores hold my attention far better than his (longer) operas.

[adriano]

It's incidental music, like those famous stage scores by Tchaikovsky, Grieg, Sibelius etc. Ballet music belongs to that category too.

[Alan Howe]

I agree, but I think there's a difference: with incidental music, the stage action, whether drama or dance, has to be made to fit the score - in other words one starts with the music - whereas film music is written to fit the visual action, in other words one starts with what has been filmed.

Korngold saw his film scores as 'operas without singing'.

[Gareth Vaughan]

with incidental music, the stage action, whether drama or dance, has to be made to fit the score - in other words one starts with the music

I'm sorry, but this is not correct, Alan. That's not how incidental music to a play works. It is almost wholly subservient to the action: the composer is present at rehearsals and works closely with the director throughout, but the music is definitely subservient to the drama. If the director says "we need to lose 30 seconds of music here" or "this bit needs to be longer" it's the composer's job to produce music to fit those cues. Having worked as an actor for over 30 years, I can assure you that this is how it is done.

[Alan Howe]

I understand that, Gareth. But is that the case with incidental music written by a composer who is no longer alive?

[Gareth Vaughan]

I don't know enough about performing traditions in earlier times, but I would have thought that at least in the last 150 years the music would have been subservient to the drama: it is, after all, described as "incidental" music (imagine GBS having his drama dictated to by the length of a piece of incidental music). Certainly in the early 19th century and the 18th century theatrical performances tended to last much longer than today's audiences would put up with, and all sorts of songs, dances, masques and what have you were sometimes shoe-horned into the play - but traditionally in the theatrical hierarchy the composer generally came somewhere below the theatre cat!

[Alan Howe]

What I'm getting at, Gareth, is not what happened in the past, but what happens today with regard to incidental music by a dead composer originally written to accompany staged action.

Actually, my guess is that these days such incidental music is almost never played to accompany the play for which it was written. In other words, it has become mere concert music. The only incidental music written by a dead composer and designed to accompany stage action these days is ballet music.

[Gareth Vaughan]

Oh, I see. Sorry, I misunderstood. I think you are right when you say that such music as was written for a particular stage production is almost never played in context again. And this is as it should be - autres temps, autres moeurs.

[adriano]

Alan, this not necessarily! For example, Marius Petipa supplied to Tchaikovsky schemes, "plots" and lenght of the single ballet pieces he needed, by even indicating tempi and necessary bar numbers (durations). And I am sure also Grieg and Sibelius were instructed by the relative stage directors/producers how long and of what kind his their incidental pieces had to be. The same also applied to various later Stravinsky ballets. In other words, the composer had also to adapt to an already existing outline, no matter if visible on a screen or not, buit the product was "there"
And - just to show the opposite - there are cases in film music history, where music cues were written before the final editing according to (mostly not yet definitely edited) moviola extracts. The final editing of the film was adapted to the "pre-composed" cue's lenght, since the producer/director liked the piece and did not wanted to shorten it. This occurred in various famous cases like "Citizen Kane" and "The Magnificent Ambersons" - or even "All That Money Can Buy" - just to quote some examples concerning Bernard Herrmann.
We already discussed this particular subject years ago in this forum.

[Alan Howe]

Thanks for that insight, Adriano.