A query regarding a particular recording...

[kolaboy]

Hi all. I have a question that has bugged me for some time.

Years ago, on Art Hoehn's  "Music Through The Night" program Mr. Hoehn played a version of Schubert's 8th that I'd not heard before, or since. What made this particular recording unique was the fact that it was not the usual two movements, nor one of the many "completed" versions; but rather the first two movements,  the few orchestrated bars of the third... and then what remained of the movement on piano.

It was actually quite moving to hear the work in this form, and to experience Schubert's (apparently) lasts thoughts - in regards to this piece - ebbing away single-notedly on the piano...

Anyway, if anyone happens to know of this recording, and it's availability, I'd be most grateful.

Danny

[eschiss1]

hrm. will try to find out if I can- do you know anything about the duration in time (start year to end year) of his program? I see he died this past March...

[kolaboy]

Thanks for your reply. I believe he hosted the programme between 1987 - 2002, after which he retired...

[ahinton]

a version of Schubert's 8th that I'd not heard before, or since. What made this particular recording unique was the fact that it was not the usual two movements, nor one of the many "completed" versions; but rather the first two movements,  the few orchestrated bars of the third... and then what remained of the movement on piano.

That sounds almost reminiscent of the BBC programme about Elgar's Third Symphony in 1995(?) in which the only part fully orchestrated by the composer (the first page and a half or so -and which could almost have been the opening gesture of Havergal Brian's Symphony No. 3½) was played as written by an orchestra and then followed extracts played on the piano by Keith Swallow around Anthony Payne's fascinating observations, only the concluding one of which (i.e. that one could only speculate on what might have been rather than expect the work to be put together in a meaningful symphonic manner from the thing of shreds and patches that were Elgar's sketches) mercifully proved to be entirely false!

As to Schubert's "last thoughts" on his B minor symphony, it's perhaps as well to remember that these were by no means his final thoughts as a composer and it has long struck me (as someone who has long struggled, largely unsuccessfully, to get to grips with most of Schubert) that, in his final couple of years or so, he began at last to write much smaller quantities of music to his great advantage, the two piano trios being particularly shining examples worthy of (though of course quite different from) Beethoven; from his final works, I cannot help but suspect that Schubert at 70 might have been one of the 19th century's greatest composers...

[kolaboy]

Oh, certainly not his last thoughts as a composer. I was referring to his "last thoughts"  in relation to the 8th. I guess fragments (and lost works) hold a certain fascination for me. One can speculate endlessly over Schumann's Corsair, and Chopin's lost Veni Creator...

[Lionel Harrsion]

...from his final works, I cannot help but suspect that Schubert at 70 might have been one of the 19th century's greatest composers...

Wasn't Schubert at 31 one of the 19th century's greatest composers?   

[alberto]

Obviously he was one of the greatest in his last year, and he was  already at twenty five, and even younger.

[alberto]

I have a recording in LP format apparently corresponding to post 1.
But it dates back to 1967.
CBS 54008. Max Goberman conducted a "New Wien Symphonic Orchestra" in Overture Rosamunde (actually "Zauberharfe"), Magnificat in C major (with soloists and chorus) and  Unfinished Symphony. The Unfinished, after the two completed movements, consists in sketches of a third: allegedly orchestrated by the composerr for nine bars, continuing on the piano played by one Kurt Rapf (the total timing is 2'.48").

[alberto]

I quote some words about which I don't at all agree (while I am much appreciating Hermann Goetz Symphony).
G.B. Shaw, "Music in London", November, 1893: "Beside it (Goetz' Symphony) Schubert's Symphonies seem mere debauches of exquisitely musical thoughtlessness". In the same page Shaw rated Goetz (as a symphonist) much superior to Mendelssohn, Schumann and Brahms.

[ahinton]

...from his final works, I cannot help but suspect that Schubert at 70 might have been one of the 19th century's greatest composers...

Wasn't Schubert at 31 one of the 19th century's greatest composers?   

Not for me, no - but he was all of a sudden showing strong signs of getting there...

[Lionel Harrsion]

...from his final works, I cannot help but suspect that Schubert at 70 might have been one of the 19th century's greatest composers...

Wasn't Schubert at 31 one of the 19th century's greatest composers?   

Not for me, no - but he was all of a sudden showing strong signs of getting there...

Really?  Gosh, my flabber has never been so gasted.  Still, as my wise old mother used to say, "It wouldn't do if we all thought the same!"

[ahinton]

...from his final works, I cannot help but suspect that Schubert at 70 might have been one of the 19th century's greatest composers...

Wasn't Schubert at 31 one of the 19th century's greatest composers?   

Not for me, no - but he was all of a sudden showing strong signs of getting there...

Really?  Gosh, my flabber has never been so gasted.  Still, as my wise old mother used to say, "It wouldn't do if we all thought the same!"

I know - and I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. I am simply temperamentally antipathetic to much of Schubert, with some notable exceptions and I am unable to do much about that. Would you not, however, agree that some of what Schubert wrote in his final years seemed to me to scale considerably greater heights than he had ever attained previously?

[Lionel Harrsion]

...from his final works, I cannot help but suspect that Schubert at 70 might have been one of the 19th century's greatest composers...

Wasn't Schubert at 31 one of the 19th century's greatest composers?   

Not for me, no - but he was all of a sudden showing strong signs of getting there...

Really?  Gosh, my flabber has never been so gasted.  Still, as my wise old mother used to say, "It wouldn't do if we all thought the same!"

I know - and I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. I am simply temperamentally antipathetic to much of Schubert, with some notable exceptions and I am unable to do much about that. Would you not, however, agree that some of what Schubert wrote in his final years seemed to me to scale considerably greater heights than he had ever attained previously?

Yes I would but it's probably true of all great composers that, to some extent, they scale greater heights as they get older.  Nevertheless, it I find it fascinating that serious musicians are sometimes antipathetic to composers who are considered among the greats -- Delius's dislike of Beethoven and Britten's antipathy towards Brahms spring immediately to mind.  Puccini is my particular bête noire!  Still, we are getting off the topic of this 'particular recording'. 

[kolaboy]

I have a recording in LP format apparently corresponding to post 1.
But it dates back to 1967.
CBS 54008. Max Goberman conducted a "New Wien Symphonic Orchestra" in Overture Rosamunde (actually "Zauberharfe"), Magnificat in C major (with soloists and chorus) and  Unfinished Symphony. The Unfinished, after the two completed movements, consists in sketches of a third: allegedly orchestrated by the composerr for nine bars, continuing on the piano played by one Kurt Rapf (the total timing is 2'.48").

Alberto, that may very well be it. Mr. Hoehn did indeed source vinyl for his broadcasts up until about 1994. Many thanks the information.

As per the notion that Schubert is not among the immortals of any century... well, if we're going down that questionable route perhaps we should also be open to the possibilities that fire is not hot, water is not wet, and that Johann Gottfried Bernhard was the greatest of J.S. Bach's sons...

[eschiss1]

allegedly orchestrated by the composer for 9 bars? well.. what level of proof are we talking about?