John Knowles Paine

[monafam]

I know that Paine has come up a handful of times on this board.  I think the board may have been what caused me to get his Symphony No. 2 in the first place.  At any rate, I really am only familiar with this work, which I think is fantastic, but plan on getting his Mass and Symphony No. 1 soon. 

As with many of the composers discussed on this forum, it seems like not a lot of Paine's works have been recorded on CDs, etc.  I'm not necessarily surprised that composers have been overlooked, but he's one of the first big American composers it seems and you would think someone would have pushed to record more of his works. 

Am I missing the Paine-recorded-works-vault somewhere, or is this just the sad lot for us fans of unsung composers?

[edurban]

Pretty slim pickins.  There seems to be a decent selection of organ music and some piano works (including Malcom Frager's delightful take on the Fuga Giocosa on a Baseball Song "Over the Fence is Out, Boys!")  The Prelude to Paine's incidental music for Oedipus Tyrannus is on Kenneth Klein's collection of American orchestral music...a must have for Dudley Buck's Festival Overture on the Star Spangled Banner (surely the greatest setting of the National Anthem ever...)

Maybe you can scare up a copy of Northestern Records disc of the Violin Sonata, Romance and Humoreske for cello and piano, and Larghetto and Humoreske for piano trio.  I notice that there is an alternate version of the Violin Sonata available, though I haven't heard it.  The Sonata is the major work of these three by a wide margin.

We really need a recording of the marvelous oratorio St. Peter, but who will pay for it?  There's also Paine's opera Azara, which would be great to hear, even if it's unlikely to see (or hold) the stage.  Was it Karl Kroeger who recorded the Moorish Dance from Azara?  I remember it as a pretty tame piece of exoticism, as you might expect from a Victorian era New Englander...

Paine started out brilliantly-the Mass was quite a calling card, but the demands of academic life and the endless demand for choral music in his time resulted in a diminished oeuvre heavy with cantatas, etc, not likely to be revived today...

David

[monafam]

Thanks much for the information! 

It is a real shame that more of his (and many others) work is not recorded.  I think about someone like Hovhaness or even a Philip Glass (both of whom I have enjoyed on occasion) and the "champions" they have.  I think it's important that the more contemporary composers have a "voice" so to speak, but it's frustrating when the money, time, talent is going towards them and not works of the past.**

**By the unsung lot I guess.  Another frustration I have is when there are multiple recordings for one specific piece.  I know the conductor/orchestra/performer can make a difference, but I'm just not likely to spend my money on another version of a piece I already own.

[TerraEpon]

I'm not too big on the second symphony, IIRC (I don't own it but I'm pretty sure I listened to it at some point...), but the first symphony is often considered the first great American symphony for good reason. He may have modeled after Brahms, but it's a lot more.....ah...rustic? and just a great listen.

[alberto]

I've got a survey in two CDs of Chadwicks piano music : "Selected Piano Works", Denver Oldham piano, New World Records 80424-02 (1993). They contain an early Piano Sonata (op.1, Chadwick aged 20) and several character pieces (in poliptics or individual). Between them a "Funeral March in memory of President Lincoln" (op.9).From the booklet I see that no piece  (in the survey) was published later than 1889. I have no idea about actual possible availability of this survey.

[alberto]

Sorry a thousand of times. I have written (and twice) "Chadwick" instead of (obviously) "Payne"

[jerfilm]

Paine hasn't been totally neglected over the years.  For example, edurban, the oratorio St. Peter was released on a 2 CD set  by an outfit called GM Recordings about 10 years ago is still available thru Amazon.  As are the symphonies and the Mass.   I have taped performances of the cantata The Nativity and The Hymn of the West.   Among the major works missing from recordings are the Centennial Ode, An Island Fantasy and the Song of Promise.    Sadly he doesn't seem to have written any concertos but there is a Duo Concertante for violin, cello and orchestra.

Jerry

[khorovod]

I'm not too big on the second symphony, IIRC (I don't own it but I'm pretty sure I listened to it at some point...), but the first symphony is often considered the first great American symphony for good reason. He may have modeled after Brahms, but it's a lot more.....ah...rustic? and just a great listen.

Not sure I would consider Brahms an influence on Paine's symphonic style and in the first symphony most definitely not, as the dates don't work let alone the actual sound of the music. And even for the second he'd have to be quick off the mark in assimilating a Brahmsian symphonic influence, as it followed Brahms first two symphonies by a quite short amount of time. How quickly did Brahms's symphonies travel to the US? Maybe the shared heritage of Schumann and Beethoven?

[edurban]

I have to say that I don't hear much Brahms in Paine's music.  The dominant models for the 1st symphony are Beethoven, then Mendelssohn.  The 2nd is overwhelmingly Schumann (it is, after all, a 'Spring' Symphony) with touches of Mendelssohn and even Raff. 

Imho, the Spring Symphony beats No. 1 soundly both for both content and expressivity...and that big New England hymn tune in the last movement is a beauty.  To quote from an account of the premier in 1880:  "...ladies waved handkerchiefs, men shouted in approbation, and the highly respected John S[ullivan] Dwight, arbiter in Boston of criticism, if not of manners, stood in his seat frantically opening and shutting his umbrella as an expression of uncontrollable enthusiasm."  Over 100 years later, I was at the New York premiere and the audience reception was just as enthusiastic.  If I'd had an umbrella, I would have opened it.

David

[Alan Howe]

FWIW for me the problem with Paine 2 is simply its length. At over 50 minutes it just goes on too long for its material, however attractive it is. Although Paine 1 is heavily indebted to Beethoven in particular, it seems to me to sprawl far less and for that reason I prefer it. However, both symphonies really ought to be performed a lot more, being two of the earliest examples of the art in America. We are fortunate to have had Zubin Mehta record them both with the NYPO - very valuable CDs indeed.

BTW I don't hear any Brahms in Paine at all. The predominant influences are surely LvB, Mendelssohn and Schumann. And I'm sometimes put in mind of Rubinstein...and maybe the Liszt of the symphonic poems...

[TerraEpon]

....fine. I should just stop posting anything here.

[edurban]

Jerfilm, Thanks for the reminder about the live St. Peter.  I think the label is long gone, but following your advice I got a sort-of reasonably priced copy on Amazon marketplace.  I remember hesitating over it for some reason 20 years ago, then couldn't find it.  Now, thanks to the internet...my collection is that much more Paine-full.

David

[Alan Howe]

....fine. I should just stop posting anything here.

Don't let me stop you! And please don't take disagreement as some sort of personal attack - it isn't. And I may quite easily be wrong (I often am!)

[monafam]

Jerfilm, Thanks for the reminder about the live St. Peter.  I think the label is long gone, but following your advice I got a sort-of reasonably priced copy on Amazon marketplace.  I remember hesitating over it for some reason 20 years ago, then couldn't find it.  Now, thanks to the internet...my collection is that much more Paine-full.

David

I did the same thing, so another thank you to Jerfilm! 

I was a little disappointed that there were no electronic formats for the music, because I have this annoying "I want it now" thing sometimes.

[jerfilm]

I was a little disappointed that there were no electronic formats for the music, because I have this annoying "I want it now" thing sometimes.

Me, too.  Plus I like the fact that they are usually about 1/2 price and for another 10 cents I can burn my own CDs.....

Jerry