Italian Music

[JimL]

Umm...not to rain on anybody's parade (or perform a Gulliverian act on anybody's Lilliputian version of same) but the information in Atsushi's download of Casella's Symphony No. 2 doesn't match the information on the file that was downloaded.  The information on our link says that La Vecchia is conducting the Rome Symphony Orchestra, whereas the downloaded file has the BBC Philharmonic conducted by Gianandrea Noseda.  Also, if I'm not mistaken, both performances are now commercially available on CD, the Noseda on Chandos, and the La Vecchia on Naxos.  Of course, if the Chandos CD is of a studio recording everything's kosher, but if it is an edited version of the Concert Archive performance recorded here on our forum, we could be in for a spot of trouble.

[eschiss1]

When the Casella was first uploaded it was believed to be a broadcast of a concert recording by Noseda.  I asked Atsushi (sorry!) if it mightn't be the Chandos recording he made instead - the overall timing seemed to match for  example - but the response I got (if I recall) was that it was a concert recording by someone else- probably Vecchia - instead, that Noseda had not made a concert recording of the description we had. (Need to check my notes, here.)

Checking the internal tracking (not just the overall timing) of "our" recording against the Chandos recording (the tracking should be at the Chandos site page describing their recording, or at other sites like Allmusic) - which I still have not done... - should clarify matters some; near-equality of the total (give or take some seconds for this or that on the end or applause or whatnot...) is one thing, but if all the movements match up, _that_ would be - something.

[JimL]

Well, the performance IS a concert performance, as there is applause at the end.  However, La Vecchia has also recorded this symphony for Naxos with the Rome Symphony, so you also need to check the timings against that CD.  There is also a YouTube, I think it's La Vecchia against which you can compare. 

[eschiss1]

the library I work at (public library a few blocks from me) has Vecchia's Casella 2 (their classical CD collection is not half bad), I can do that comparison very easily indeed but I think the total timings (our download as against Vecchia's studio recording) -are- different by a few minutes there anyway - will check... (and if so it's not Vecchia's studio recording, barring tweaking of some kind)

Vecchia's recording totals 55-odd minutes; our download is 49 minutes 26 seconds. I'm not too concerned about our recording being the same as the Naxos recording. It could be the Chandos recording, which is also 49 minutes 20 seconds (see Chandos. Will check the internal timings (which should be at about 12:32 / 21:13 / 31:59 / 42:50 / 49:20 . )

Hrm. Second "track" of our download starts (goodness, this work really -is- inspired by Mahler's 2nd symphony, just as the booklet note to Vecchia's recording led me to expect) at 12:32. Ok, that number looks... familiar... carrying on... 3rd track of download starts at 21:34 ... (so 2nd movement is 9:02 long rather than 8:41)

[JimL]

I've done it all with the timings and the samples from Amazon.com.  Apparently, what we have here is the Noseda, sans the Epilogo movement, which is offered on an MP3.  The La Vecchia recording apparently has the Epilogo movement included with the rest of the finale, inflating the total to about 18:50.  It could be that the Noseda recording is a studio performance, and if so, as long as the performance we have here is Noseda in a concert performance, everything's fine, although without the 5th movement, it may not be complete.

[eschiss1]

this recording doesn't have the Epilog? The timings at Chandos suggest that he gets in all 5 movements, including the Epilogo, in 49 minutes, on that CD... sound samples from all 5 movements can be heard at the Chandos link I provided, I think. (actually, no, you have to go to TheClassicalshop to hear the soundsamples or download the mp3s rather than do so at the Chandos page itself. And you're right, movements 4 and 5 don't have mp3s provided there. I do have a "rip" I made of Vecchia's recording- which does not have the Epilog listed separately but whose finale, at 18 minutes, is either ultraslow (quite possible since his total timing for the symphony is rather longer than Noseda's anyway) or, I think, contains the epilog in it and just doesn't separately track it- so I'll compare the music to see if the download we have does have the epilog in it...

[JimL]

My bad.  The Epilogo is included on our download as part of the finale, not a separate track.  However, the overall time of the finale (Epilogo included) on the Noseda is just a shade under 17 minutes, sans applause, whereas the La Vecchia finale is almost 19 minutes.  I think we have the Noseda here.

[eschiss1]

-If- Chandos has their timings right, the third movement begins around 21:13 on the commercial recording, but it begins about 21:30 here (whoever's recording it is). A noticeable difference. (If someone was asleep at the controls and clicked "record" a few seconds too late, or if their track listing is off by 20 seconds in all somewhere, then well, no.) As to the La Vecchia recording etc.- yes, that's what I said- and just listened to and confirmed it over the last 18:50 minutes, too I was a bit asleep (well, eating) at the wheel myself so I didn't check where il Epilogo beginnt, but definitely a recognizable one there!

(Edit: 21:30 (unless pausing and unpausing did something- it seems to have- odd- maybe that explains something right there... need to start over, Eric...). hrm. Still, no empty space at the beginning of the file that needs to be subtracted, I think, so...)

Finale seems to start around 32:06, I -think-... maybe 32:02.
ok, need to check that again...
Hrm. Only anomaly is the 3rd movement, and that might just be a typo somewhere- will go see if any of the better review sites (*cough* MusicWeb *cough* or a few others) mentioned some such thing. I think you're right after all.

[JimL]

Nonetheless, even though our download says La Vecchia, the file itself says Noseda, and the timings are far too close to Noseda's much more rapid reading to be a coincidence.

[eschiss1]

I incline to agree. Going to do a bit of possibly confirmatory research, but the evidence points in your direction. I apologize for being a bother truly!

[JimL]

Bother?!!!  BOTHER?!!!!!!!!!!!  My good man, you've been an inestimable help, as always!  Well, as usual, if I may refrain from superlatives.  The question now is, can we keep the download, or is it too much of a risk that it is the same performance as the one committed to CD?

[eschiss1]

Such lovely and powerful (yes, young and somewhat derivative, but good stuff...) music this work (and others here too- this forum has been wonderful) and at the risk of sounding disingenuous (... or something. erm.) I never envy the moderators choices like these when and whether they're difficult, easy or inbetween.

Staying within the topic of Italian Music and download discussion, can anyone tell me if they know whether Italian Radio's archives have a searchable database that's online (like Swedish Radio and TV (SMDB), British Radio (Classical and other, I think) (CADENSA), Czech Radio, and some others)? I'd like to see if some otherwise unavailable works by Pappalardo, Mascia, Giorgetti (1796-1867, chamber music composer among other things), Scontrino, and others (mostly better known than those four) might have been at some point broadcast...

(Well, not quite unknown- some clarinet music (6 Bozzetti) by Scontrino is recorded, and a search of rai.it reveals that a clarinet/piano waltz (Adelaide, the first of the Bozzetti) of his indeed was recorded by RAI in 1988 (not the same performers as on Naxos.) (was looking for, in his case, one of his 5 string quartets, I admit! )

[TerraEpon]

I know whatever recording that I listened to that was uploaded here was emphatically NOT the Chandos disc, but I dunno beyond that...

[Mark Thomas]

I'm away from home at present and can check neither my download nor my copy of the Noseda CD, so I must rely on the good work of Jim and Eric. I'll be interested to read what Atsushi says, when Japan wakes up. Needless to say, if there is sustainable doubt about the origin of the upload then it will have to go.

[eschiss1]

TerraEpon- what differences in interpretation convince you of this if I may ask? If it's just differences in recording quality, the differences between the CD and the FLAC-download versions of the Chandos recording, I gather, were, according to one reviewer (for MusicWeb), remarkable- and that word is overused, but I mean, well, sounded much more than worthy of being remarked on... (in favor of the latter).