Albert Dietrich: symphony, violin concerto and overture, forthcoming from Naxos

[John Boyer]

I'm still on the fence about getting this.  I like the CPO, so it would really be primarily for the overture.  But then how soon can we expect a rival recording of that?  Perhaps I should just take the leap. 

[Alan Howe]

I think you'll also appreciate the very fine performance of the Violin Concerto, John. It might just be the best of the three that have been recorded thus far.

[Mark Thomas]

I was lukewarm about the Violin Concerto recording when I first sampled it but I do now agree with Alan, Klaidi Sahatçi's performance is so persuasive and the orchestral support is absolutely fine. The cpo account seems a tad pedestrian by comparison. I remain agnostic about the Symphony but the Overture is a winner.

[Alan Howe]

My verdict is: cpo for the Symphony and Naxos for the Violin Concerto (plus the nice bonus of the Overture).

[Alan Howe]

There's a very interesting review by Dave Hurwitz of a new Brahms Symphony cycle featuring the Chamber Orchestra of Europe. He quite likes it, but he has some interesting things to say about the lack of strings. I'm just wondering whether what he says about Brahms has any bearing upon Dietrich. See what you think...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCHEO8M05Yg

(For once I agree with DH - especially in connection with Brahms and his preferences with regard to orchestral resources. The result in the new recordings is a string section not really suited to the task.)

[John Boyer]

Good points, Alan.  Did Hurwitz say just how big the string section was?  (I tried watching, but I just can't stomach him.)  You can do Brahms with reduced strings to great effect.  By far my favorite set is the very well received cycle that Mackerras and the Scottish Chamber Orchestra did for Telarc.  He used an orchestra of about 50 players.  How many strings is that?  The scoring of Brahms's symphonies varies, but it's usually about 9 winds (2-2-2-2 plus a contrabassoon or piccolo), 9 brass (4-2-3, with a tuba in the 2nd and to my great surprise no trombones at all in the 4th, just 4-2-0...somehow I never noticed this in concert [Edit: No , I wrong -- there *are* 3 trombones, but they only play in the finale]), and 1 percussion (other than the triangle in the 4th).  This gives us 19 non-string players, leaving room for 31 strings.  Assuming you want to tally exactly 50, you could have a string choir of 8-8-6-6-3.  This works, but would be the bare minimum. 

In fact, the documentation to the set shows Mackerras used a string choir of 10-8-6-6-4, giving 34 strings and total of about 53 players, give or take.  So his orchestra of "about 50" was on the high side of 50, not the low.  Here in the provinces this is closer to how I've always heard Brahms.  The local orchestras (Springfield, Hartford) usually use orchestras of about 60 players, with a string choir of about 40, say 12-10-8-6-4.  This is slightly bigger than Mackerras, but close enough that is has always been "my" Brahms sound.  In Boston or New York, I've heard Brahms with 80 players and 60 strings (you might start your choir with 16 first violins alone), but these (and the recordings thereof) have always sounded bloated to me, with Mahler-like waves of string sound.  Many prefer this, of course, but I prefer the leaner 50 to 60 player approach.

If the new COE set uses a band of 50+ then it might be worth investigating, but if they tried to get away with anything smaller (say, only 40 players), then I can't imagine how it would work.

I have the new Naxos Dietrich disc on order, so it will be interesting to make the comparison with the CPO.

[Alan Howe]

From the COE website (which doesn't distinguish between first and second violins) the string section is 19/8/9/4 = 40 strings in all. Of course, I don't know how many were actually used on the new set.

Excerpts from the new COE cycle under Nezet-Séguin can be heard here:
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9637072--johannes-brahms-the-symphonies

[Alan Howe]

The other point, of course, is the matter of recording balance...

[Mark Thomas]

... and as we know from Paul Wee's recent Bronsart/Henselt recording, that's another can of worms!

[Alan Howe]

Quite so.

Here's an interesting remark by the late Calum (Malcolm) MacDonald (in the booklet notes for the Hyperion release including Dietrich's Cello Concerto):

...his musical language, which in his maturity became something of a blend of Schumann and Brahms, is distinctive and sophisticated... (my emphasis)

[John Boyer]

I do now agree with Alan, Klaidi Sahatçi's performance is so persuasive and the orchestral support is absolutely fine.

I finally listened last night, coming away most impressed.  I have yet to listen to the symphony, but the concerto is well  played , the orchestra vivid and firm, and the engineering quite natural sounding, with no perceptible  sense of "Phase 4" monkeying.

Preference might just come down to the big orchestra/big hall sound on CPO versus the smaller hall/smaller orchestra sound on Naxos.  I'll know more after the symphony, but so far, so good. 

[Mark Thomas]

Preference might just come down to the big orchestra/big hall sound on CPO versus the smaller hall/smaller orchestra sound on Naxos. 

That's exactly right and why I prefer the cpo recording for the Symphony.

[Alan Howe]

I still prefer the cpo in the Symphony - not only for the extra weight of the orchestra, but also the greater momentum generated at the opening of the first movement.

[John Boyer]

...and having just heard the symphony, I am now certain you can't go wrong with this, even if you already have the CPO.  The new Naxos disc doesn't so much supplant as complement the CPO.  They are both equally valid. 

I will reverse Alan and Mark by saying I prefer the CPO for the concerto -- I like the more distant miking and integration of the soloist -- while I prefer the Naxos for the symphony -- I like the very detailed sound and vivid perspective, reminding me of Bernstein's recordings with the NYPO that he made with Columbia in the early 60s. 

[Alan Howe]

...which demonstrates the abiding value of this forum, i.e. the exchange of differing views, clearly and charitably expressed.

Thank you, John.