hrm. again about Vladigerov's first symphony-

[eschiss1]

seemed to be in D major rather than minor- was that ever clarified? I forget.

[fr8nks]

I believe it is in D minor and for my support please check this web site:

                                      http://vladigerov.org/index.php?p=49&l=2&ord=0,1,0,10

Thanks,
Frank

[eschiss1]

I'll listen more closely but the opening of both first movement and (in case the first movement and finale got switched accidentally) finale seem D major to me, and since major and minor are 99.44 times out of 100 (Mahler works being among the exceptions, and others) defined, for sonata-style works, as key of the main theme of fast part of the main sonata-style movement etc. -- (which is why also the Haydn symphony no.34 may be a D major symphony, as there is evidence that it was published with the first two movements in switched order- D minor D major rather than D major D minor - from what the composer clearly specified in his own thematic catalog- but that's another topic... )  well- if the movements are D major, then I will have to account it a typo or mistranslation.

(Sometimes translations take "D-flat major" in one language- Des-dur in German for instance - and turn it into "D minor", for instance; have seen that happen a time or five; or "D moll" into "D-flat major", conversely.
Not to get one started about "H moll", "B moll" and B minor and B-flat minor...)

(Or, third alternative, that it's not the right work )

[fr8nks]

I could be wrong but when I studied music I was told the key of a work is determined by the key it closes with. I would be interested in what you hear at the end.

[fr8nks]

Please allow me to modify my last post. A work may begin in the key it is written but it always ends in the signature key. I defer to you to tell me the key it ends in since I lack the ability to do so.

[eschiss1]

Generally it's safer to go by the opening key of the (main part of the...) first (or the first fast) movement since even before Mahler and after the Baroque most such pieces tend to be considered in the key their first movements are "in" but might very occasionally end in a different one (though ok, most of the examples I can think of right now are by Liszt, not the best example of "standard practice" "anything")...

and even leaving the Dante symphony aside, a tendency to end a D minor work (for example) with a F major movement I think i do see occasionally especially in works by minor composers of the Romantic age. (Actually, I think Thorpe Davie had it right that the best advice when confronted with rigid textbook theory is to use one's ears ...anyhow- sorry if I confuse.)

[JimL]

The key of a piece is nominally determined by the tonality and modality of the first movement proper.  That is to say, if there is a slow introduction to the first movement in, say, D minor, but the movement proper is in D Major (e.g. Haydn's Symphony 104) the key of the work is D Major.  The ending of a work has no bearing on the key.  Mendelssohn's Italian Symphony is in A Major, but the finale is in A minor.  Chopin's F minor Fantasy, Op. 49 begins in F minor but ends in A-flat.  His B-flat minor Scherzo, Op. 31, begins in B-flat minor but ends in D-flat.  The F Major Ballade of Chopin starts in F but ends in A minor!  Hiller's PC 1 is in F minor, but the finale is in A-flat.  Of course there are always some exceptions.  Beethoven's 9th Violin Sonata (the Kreuzer) has a slow introduction to the first movement in A Major, but the movement proper begins in A minor.  Yet the sonata itself is considered to be in A Major.  To this day, nobody has been able to explain to me exactly why they make that exception for it, but they do.

Now if somebody could direct me to Vladigerov's S1 download, I can hear it for myself.  I haven't been able to find it.  Is it in the Bulgarian file?

[eschiss1]

I don't think they're still up there. I've found the beginning on YouTube though.

Hrm. Maybe I do need to listen to this again and didn't give it a thorough enough listen last time after all... opening seems to be in D major but that may just be an introduction, like in Mendelssohn's symphony no.11 (which is properly in F minor) (Or a certain Mozart organ fantasia). And it does seem that the main section, starting? at 4'47" or so into the first movement of the Vladigerov (listening to the YouTube - I do have it downloaded from earlier and can upload my copy if needed?... ) - is indeed in minor. Sorry about the trouble. ...
Hrm. Neat piece (not surprised that it is.)

[eschiss1]

As to the Kreutzer sonata, the fast movement seems to me to begin in D minor after the A major introduction, though it regains A minor soon enough - and ends in A minor. It's considered an A major sonata because.. er.. because... yes, I've often wondered that myself.
The answer being, 'cause Beethoven said so ;^)
(I'm ... er... mostly joking. And not at Beethoven's expense- I wouldn't ; a member of this forum I happily am but Beethoven remains my favorite composer.)

[Holger]

Eric,

I read your question a while ago but forgot to answer. I think D Minor is alright, but it's a D Minor symphony with substantial passages in D Major. Beginning and Ending of the First movement are actually in D Major, but in between, it's D Minor (as you say, that 4'47" section establishes the main they of the first movement). Similarly, the beginning of the finale somehow moves here and there, finally to establish D Major, which is also the key in which the symphony closes.

This is probably one of the minor mode symphonies most directed towards major, but it was obviously the composer's intention to call it a D Minor symphony (and thus maybe to emphasize the element of struggle in it).

There are these cases in which the major / minor issue is not that clear. Some examples have already been mentioned. In case of Mendelssohn, we could also point out the Italian Symphony has an A Minor finale, of course. Khrennikov's Third Piano Concerto is in C Major, but the only time this key is reached is in the coda of the first movement, while the second and third movements are in C Minor, and the concerto also ends in minor mode. Or take Richard Wetz's Third Symphony: the composer always called it a "B flat Major Symphony" but large parts of the piece are actually in B flat Minor, the whole fast part of the first movement is clearly minor, and so is the finale, major only being reached in its final bars.

[JimL]

If what you say about Khrennikov's 3rd PC is true than it is in C minor, not C Major.  Pretty much the same applies to Bronsart's PC in F# minor.  If the first movement begins in the tonic minor and there is no kind of introduction outside the main body of the movement (e.g. Tchaikovsky PC 1) then that modality is the one by which the work is defined.  Take a look at Chopin's PC 1.  3 movements in E, the first in minor, the last 2 in major mode.  How is the work referred to?  In the case of Khrennikov somebody may have made the same mistake as was done with Rubinstein's PC 1, which is in E minor, but has been erroneously referred to as being in E Major in several places, most notably in its world premiere LP recording.

In the case Vladigerov S 1, you seem to have hit it on the head.  The main theme of the movement is in D minor, and the fast (rather than slow) introduction also starts out in D minor.  So the key of the symphony itself is D minor.

[Dundonnell]

The key of a piece is nominally determined by the tonality and modality of the first movement proper.  That is to say, if there is a slow introduction to the first movement in, say, D minor, but the movement proper is in D Major (e.g. Haydn's Symphony 104) the key of the work is D Major.  The ending of a work has no bearing on the key.  Mendelssohn's Italian Symphony is in A Major, but the finale is in A minor.  Chopin's F minor Fantasy, Op. 49 begins in F minor but ends in A-flat.  His B-flat minor Scherzo, Op. 31, begins in B-flat minor but ends in D-flat.  The F Major Ballade of Chopin starts in F but ends in A minor!  Hiller's PC 1 is in F minor, but the finale is in A-flat.  Of course there are always some exceptions.  Beethoven's 9th Violin Sonata (the Kreuzer) has a slow introduction to the first movement in A Major, but the movement proper begins in A minor.  Yet the sonata itself is considered to be in A Major.  To this day, nobody has been able to explain to me exactly why they make that exception for it, but they do.

Now if somebody could direct me to Vladigerov's S1 download, I can hear it for myself.  I haven't been able to find it.  Is it in the Bulgarian file?

I shall upload the Vladigerov Symphony No.1 for you since no one else has offered

[JimL]

That's OK, Colin.  It had a file of its own before we began the national threads.

[fr8nks]

I sent JimL a personal message stating that the Vladigerov Symphony No.1 was on page 4 of the downloads in a file labeled "P. Vladigerov".

[Holger]

Jim, all sources I know give C Major as the key of Khrennikov's Third PC, and thus I think that's what the composer intended. In fact, the work doesn't start in C Minor, but it begins with a long solo cadenza roaming here and there, maybe a bit oriented towards A Minor. When the orchestra enters the music moves to B flat Major, and actually shortly after the fast section begins we hear C Major for the first time (if I remember correctly). The music then goes on with lots of energy, leading to a bursting climax in B flat Major. After a massive breakdown, a silent and gentle coda finally confirms C Major to be the main key of this movement. Altogether I do regard it as a C Major movement, though it's only the coda which finally makes things clear. The other two movements are clearly in C Minor.

In case of Rubinstein's PC #1 you are fully right, while I don't know the Bronsart Concerto myself. However, in case of Khrennikov, we are talking about a piece composed in 1983, which implies some greater freedom. My view on the issue is that Khrennikov wanted to compose a C Major concerto but with considerable turbulences which finally make the minor mode dominate.

(However, this is clearly off-topic here, though it's another interesting example of somewhat ambiguous main keys.)