A Moszkowski Symphony?

[eschiss1]

... that is interesting- though it shows a (not unusual, I know) lack of judgment on the dissertation's author's part to show no curiosity, caveats, etc. and just report . Odd. Hrm.

[JimL]

Maybe so, but the fact that the Larghetto is in B-flat Major would indicate that the symphony might be the D minor, since that isn't so distant a key from D minor than it is from C Major.  Although it isn't out of the question (see Rufinatscha's 5th).  Maybe the symphony in the library is a conflation of the two.

[eschiss1]

or for that matter Schubert's 2nd (B-flat major, but C minor scherzo (yes, yes, I know, that's the relative minor of the slow movement...) )...
or Dvorak's 3rd (wt(ishere) is the slow movement doing in 7f (C-sharp) minor? and shouldn't the finale work its way back -from- it (or in some way take advantage of it...)? not his most convincing moment- and I love Dvorak.)
or other examples. True... one awaits hopeful eventual clarification.

[JimL]

I thought the 3rd movement of Schubert's 2nd was a minuetto, not a scherzo.  In fact, it is.  Are you sure it's not in G minor?

[eschiss1]

Downloading the 1884 Brahms-edited (not first edition) score from IMSLP, you're right, it's a Menuetto (blasted hybrid non-word, but not Schubert's fault) - Allegro vivace. But yes, it's in C minor, the supertonic key of the symphony.
(Actually, that might have -been- its first edition. My bad. Huh! Not the only such case of course of a work being edited-and-FE. )

[Mark Thomas]

Meanwhile, getting back to Moszkowski...

[John M Potter]

I have emailed Bojan Assenov about the symphony - I'll let you know what he says in due course!

[eschiss1]

Thanks!

[John M Potter]

Well Bojan has replied to my email and thanks to him we can now clear up a couple of things! I quote his replies verbatim:

Q: Is there only one symphony in the BNF?
A: "Yes, there is only this one. With the second symphony in the Biographical Sketch he most probably meant his Symphonic Poem "Johanna d'Arc MoszWV 140"  he wrote in Berlin in the years 1875-1876. There is no hint in the diaries or any other source that suggests he wrote a second symphony while he was working on the symphonic poem. Moszkowski might also have had the Ouverture D-Dur MoszWV 145 in his mind. " [Moszkowski sometimes referred to Johanna d'Arc as a symphony in his correspondence- JP]

Q: Are the 1st and 4th movements really in C major?
A: "As my research was done a few years ago, I cannot enlighten you about this very obvious question by memory. I do not believe I made a mistake or a wrong analysis - although my time was limited and the rules of the BNF about copying music quite strict. The deciphered diaries and notes of Moszkowski are almost completely included in the dissertation. But being placed in the front row of the librarian with cameras on my back - there was no chance to copy at least a few bars with pencil for the incipits I would have really liked to have included. Maybe the forum´s hypothesis about the wrong cover is right - it was a similar problem with the piano concerto that was labeled op. 6. A lack of interest of bringing light into this matter seems to be mostly on the composers part. Moszkowski was not keen to have this music published. How these documents came into the hand of Madame Suzanne Redon was not revealed (see page 475)."

Q: Is it performable and publishable?
A: "A fantastic project to have this works recorded!  Detailed research of the musical material in the BNF and a performance should be possible and very interesting. I remember the works being complete (only scores, no instrument parts).  As you discussed it would be helpful to have a far-reaching permission of a research institution and also a Librarian that supports this project."

So there you go. A visit to the BNF in search of a friendly librarian seems to be in order!

[Steve B]

Oh I do hope this symphony is recordable:) Is Joan of Arc an opera?; i love this composer; his bitterweet combination of joy and sadness,; he is one of the (relatively) unknowns with his own discernible style and he writes exquisitely for the piano; i know there are some here(lol) who think him saccharine, but if it moves me , it moves me (much as SOME, not all, Eric Coates, for example): Violin Concerto, Piano Concerto, the Ballade for violin and orchestra(both on Hyperion) and most of the piano works; all gorgeous(I especially recommend, again "Hommage to Schumann " for piano which out-Schumanns Schumann in bitter-sweet extrovert brilliance, especially at the end); what a clever affectionate hommage; and this man died in penury, with poor estimate of his own worth as a composer he allegedly said his piano concerto was only fit for raising the level of piano stool . Field, Chopin and Moszkowski, three of the most idiomatic composers for the piano; oh and i have 2 of his orchestral suites(one on Louisvillle Orchestra LP) and they are masterly in orchestration, so NOT just a piano composer.

[eschiss1]

Hrm? No, his Joan of Arc- to my knowledge- is a symphonic poem. The score is at IMSLP. (2018 belated edit: er, egg on my face. Should have looked. The 2-piano _arrangement_ is at IMSLP...)

[Lionel Harrsion]

I love this composer; his bittersweet combination of joy and sadness,; he is one of the (relatively) unknowns with his own discernible style and he writes exquisitely for the piano; I know there are some here(lol) who think him saccharine, but if it moves me , it moves me (much as SOME, not all, Eric Coates, for example): ... with poor estimate of his own worth as a composer he allegedly said his piano concerto was only fit for raising the level of piano stool(. Field, Chopin and Moszkowski, three of the most idiomatic composers for the piano;

I do so agree with you, Steve.  I think the Piano Concerto is not only absolutely gorgeous but the structure is innovative and the whole thing is just so well crafted.  And you are so right when you refer to Eric Coates; the main theme of the finale of Moszkowski's Piano Concerto always reminded me of someone else but I never could put my finger on it but you just did, possibly unintentionally  -- it's just like one of those quick marches by Coates and none the worse for that, in my book!

[jerfilm]

My favorite piano concerto......

Jerry

[John M Potter]

Joan of Arc, Op19 is a symphonic poem in four movements (Moszkowski sometimes called it a symphony) His only opera is "Boabdil, der letzte Maurenkönig" and he also wrote a ballet "Laurin". Now that's a recording project!

[Steve B]

Wow, John; how can we get these recorded?Jerry, your favourite PC   ; wow; one of mine too; which recording(s)do u favour?: I think i have them all.Lionel, thanks; is cyclic form used in the PC have u noticed?; and i think the thing in common between Coates and Moszkowski is that beautiful, as i have said, bittersweet poignancy of life is not unfraught with difficulties at times but lets try and go on as best and joyfully as we can(but with perhaps regret and sadness having the last word, sort of hidden underneath the ostensible joy). One movement of sheer sadness(?loss?regret for happier times?; i realise at least SOME of this is my subjective interpretation/projection)is the slow movt of the VC; i have written about before the heartstopping moment in the middle; where the drums just beat and then my favourite melody in all music comes back; this is deep music , certainly at this point, IMHO. Also, re-listened to some miscellaneous piano solo stuff: how exquisite and again poignant. I am also thinking of the , again, ostensibly, "upbeat" section of Coates' "Saxo Rhapsody"- almost manic in its STRIVING(sic!) to be happy but ending up sinking back into the forlorn, "it must be so" introductory material.As is frequent with music-that being its great strength over most of the other arts-it is BEYOND?ABOVE helpless VERBAL attempts at description, even more than approximatizing nomenclature(via tempo markings etc and so called expressive marks, like dynamics, phrasing, even rubato); it is -contentious word, i know!- metaphysical; there is a significant amount of this quintessentially musical unkowability and inability to put into words, in both Coates and Moszkowski's works.Steve