The quest for the ur-concerto

[Gauk]

Here is a new game.

Imagine somehow you could take all the romantic piano concertos ever written, and somehow condense them into a single work that would be the expression of the dominant features of the lot of them. I call this the ur-concerto. It is the piano concerto that is most like every other romantic piano concerto. It has all the most commonly used gestures. So for instance, if the most common way to start the slow movement was a wistful theme introduced by the cellos, that's what the ur-concerto will have. And so on.

The question is, which actual piano concerto most resembles the ur-concerto? It will of necessity be by a minor composer, because it will be an assembly of every possible cliché in the repertoire. I have struggled with this for ages, but of course, the concertos that get recorded usually are those that have some originality!

Any suggestions for the most hackneyed romatic piano concerto?

[Mark Thomas]

The Grieg. I love it because it is pretty much just the sort of synthesis which you are describing. He may be a sung composer but I think that he's essentially a minor figure, and I'm not just referring to his small stature!

[mikehopf]

Didn't Hoffnung do the ultimate ur-concerto?

[eschiss1]

... I would think an Ur-concerto would be something arranged from that Gilgamesh oratorio... never mind, 2 days too late.

[jerfilm]

I think you nailed it Mark.  the Grieg.......   Kind of the only major work of a minor composer.

J

[eschiss1]

Jerfilm- ok, I really have to disagree. His string quartet in G minor is much better, and definitely a major work.

Anyway...

[Gauk]

This is quite strange as I also keep coming back to Grieg whenever I think about this but I'm sure there must be a less talented example.

The Hoffnung you mention is the Concerto Populari by Franz Reizenstein (a neglected composer well worth tracking down). It doesn't count because it is a mass of quotes rather than clichés.

[thalbergmad]

Perhaps the Bortkiewicz 1st. It is an amalgamation of Chopin/Liszt/Henselt/Rachmaninoff with a touch of Addinsell to finish it off.

Perhaps that is why I love it more than any other.

Thal

[Mark Thomas]

Yes, that's a good nomination, Thal.

[giles.enders]

Did no one ever hear Victor Borge play his mix of Greig, Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninov. It was quite surreal as they are all well known to me and the change to bits from each was both amusing but also said something else, it made me more aware of how I assumed what was coming.

[Alan Howe]

Tchaik 1?

[Gauk]

Tchaik 1?

Tchaikovsky 1 has a really unusual 1st movement structure, which disqualifies it out of hand 

[Alan Howe]

OK, Gauk: let's have your take on the so-called ur-concerto, then. It's easy to take pop shots at everyone else's suggestions, but we haven't heard yours yet (guns at the ready, chaps! )

BTW 'ur-concerto' suggests 'original concerto', i.e., in this context, the concerto from which all other romantic piano concertos derive. Obviously this isn't what you mean...

[Amphissa]

My reservation about this notion of the ur-concerto has to do with origins of the ideas that are so common.

If a piano concerto became so successful and popular that other composers modeled their own works after that one, then it would become the ur-concerto, and it would sound somewhat hackneyed because it had been emulated so much. Looked at from this direction, the ur-concerto would seen as a great piece because of its influenc e on other composers, and yet might seem less intriguing to listen to just because it had been emulated and reworked so many times.

On the other hand, if a concerto were just a pastiche of the many ideas of other great composers, a totally derivative work with little originality of its own, it would qualify as an ur-concerto in the sense defined here -- quoting and paraphrasing the greats who had gone before. Yet it would be held in lower esteem, because it was so derivative.

I would tend to put Grieg in the former category. His concerto was immensely popular and widely influential as a result. I think we've heard it so much, both in its original form and in its emulations by other coomposers, that we've tired of it. Yet is was, when originally written, an imaginative and enjoyable piece, worthy of its popularity.

Of the real derivative works that crib from so many previous works, I offer Andre Mathieu. His Piano Concerto No. 4 is surely one of the most derivative works ever penned, although others might select his 3rd as even more worthy of this award. It's fun to listen to Mathieu, because you've heard it all before. It's like visiting old friends.

Runner-up in the latter category, I would submit Paderewski. A fine work, fun to listen to, but wholly derivative.

[Alan Howe]

A perceptive post, Dave. Thanks - and I agree...