The German operatic tradition beyond Wagner

[Alan Howe]

...by which I mean the broad German operatic tradition between, say, 1850 and 1880, but leaving Wagner out of the picture. I can think of operas such as Der Cid (Cornelius - 1865), Die Königin von Saba (Goldmark - 1875), Ekkehard (Abert - 1878) and Robin Hood (Dietrich - 1879). So can friends please think of any others (not comedies or operettas, please!) - especially if they have been recorded?

[eschiss1]

Flotow wrote quite a few in that period, none recorded to my knowledge in more than excerpts. Franz von Holstein had an opera ''Die Hochländer'' Op.36 premiered in 1876 on the Mannheim stage to his own libretto (I don't think it's recorded either.) Other examples too (e.g. Wuerst's Vineta, performed/premiered? 1862 though in Bratislava, to the composer's own libretto after a text by Gerstäcker), Klughardt's Iwein (1877-78) (a Worldcat search for Klughardt Iwein pulls up only one LP, in which someone with the name Iwein is a performer in Klughardt's wind quintet. Ah well. One tries...)  (do we mean opera by German composers or opera premiered on German stages (admittedly, "German" only started taking on a definite definition later in the 1850-1880 period anyway, at least politically), or something else? apologies for asking about what are to others well-known definitions.)

(And at least selections of Flotow's (1852?) Indra have been recorded. Hrm. Though I guess nothing near the whole thing?)

[Mark Thomas]

Three more names to add to Eric's suggestions:

Heinrich Hofmann wrote at least five operas: Cartouche (1869), Armin (1877),  Ännchen von Tharau (1878), Wilhelm von Oranien (1882) and Donna Diana (1886).

Three of Joachim Raff's operas were dramas: König Alfred (1848-52), Samson (1853-57) and Benedetto Marcello (1877-78).

Eduard Lassen (nominally a Dane brought up in Belgium, but effectively a German composer) wrote three: Landgraf Ludwig's Brautfahrt (1857), Frauenlob (1861), and Le Captif (1868).

There must be many others.

[eschiss1]

Well, if (Austro-Hungarian?) Goldmark is allowed I imagine Lassen can be

[eschiss1]

Hrm. Operone.de is still down, but looking at another site (Stanford's opera site) I see e.g. that Bruch's 3 operas were all premiered in this period... (Scherz, List und Rache (this one recorded in full or at least mostly??- however this may be a comic opera and therefore fall under "rule 1" above. ah well...); die Loreley; Hermione).  Likewise 4 early operas by Brüll--

Die Bettler von Samarkand (1864 Wien)
Das goldene Kreuz (22.12.1875 Berlin) - this the only one I've really heard of. (Some excerpts and maybe the overture recorded?)
Der Landfriede (4.10.1877 Wien)
Bianca (25.11.1879 Dresden)

And these by August Conradi, a name familiar I think to Liszt fans...

Die Braut des Flussgottes (1850 Berlin)
Musa, der letzte Maurenfürst (1855 Berlin)
Die Sixtinische Madonna (1864 Berlin)
Knecht Ruprecht (1865 Berlin)
Im Weinberge des Herrn (1867 Berlin)
Das schönste Mädchen im Städtchen (1868 Berlin)

Though again all obscure and unperformed-in-the-modern-era to the best of my very limited knowledge.

[mikehopf]

There's my own favourite: Goetz Taming of the Shrew ( c.1874)... but I suppose that this counts as a comedy.. but, then again, so does Donna Diana.

[eschiss1]

Hrm. Don't know the plot of "Ruy Blas" well enough to say, but maybe Max Zenger's 1868 (premiered in Mannheim, don't know date of composition- libretto has been scanned in by the Munich library, etc.) 4-act "Grosse Oper" of that name also counts?

[Alan Howe]

Thanks for all these suggestions.

[Dave]

Zemlinsky's "The Dwarf" is pretty superb.

[Alan Howe]

...but it doesn't fall within the 1850-1880 period which this thread is concerned with.

[wexoperafan]

Goldmark's Merlin is quite good, but just a little outside the timeline, as it premiered in 1886

Wex

[Derek Hughes]

This tends to prove that Wagner so overshadowed German operatic culture that little else flourished.

Schumann's Genoveva is 1850.

Of the operas mentioned already, the only ones I've heard are Der Cid, Die Königin von Saba, and Bruch's Lorelei. The last, by a composer I much admire, struck me as disappointing, with music that could often date from the 1820's and little sense of music theatre: there's an irrelevant drinking scene which contrasts very unfavourably with the comparable and heavily ironic scene in Marschner's Vampyr. The other two have strengths, and Wagner admired parts of Die Königin von Saba. I've looked at the VS of Hofmann's Armin in the British Library, and agree with Wagner's assessment of its emptiness. Other operas for which he had little time are Kretschmer's Die Folkunger (1874), whose vocal score I've just discovered to be available online, and Theodor Körner by his erstwhile friend, Wendelin Weissheimer (1872). I don't know whether it is comic or serious. Marschner's romantic operas Austin and Der Sangeskönig Hiarne are both post-1850. I don't know any Marschner work after Hans Heiling, but there seems to be general agreement that he went into steep decline.

All in all, my favourite operas from this period are two I'm not allowed to mention: The Taming of the Shrew and The Barber of Baghdad.

Just missing this time-frame is Lortzing's Regina (1848), which I ought to have heard but haven't. I see that it will be broadcast next month on Radio Stephansdom.

[Derek Hughes]

A postscript, which really scrapes the barrel: Lindpaintner's Giulia oder die Corsen  (August Lewald), Oper 4 Akte op. 446 (1851/52; 20. Nov. 1853).

[Derek Hughes]

More: Hiller, Die Katakomben (1862).

[Alan Howe]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm sure there are many more, but it doesn't sound like there are many neglected important operas.

Cornelius' Der Cid is, of course, basically Lohengrin without the tunes.  Personally, I think The Queen of Sheba is the best of the lot, with Ekkehard a decent runner-up.