Czerny's orchestral oeuvre

[Balapoel]

It's been a while since I've taken time out to listen to Czerny, but I am always rewarded. I know there are a couple of threads on Czerny's symphonies, but I wonder if we can shed light on his other orchestral compositions.

The additional symphonies and piano concerti are according to Grove, with source given as 'mentioned in Mandyczewski'.

Mandyczewski: Zusatz-Band zur Geschichte der kk. Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde in Wien (Vienna, 1912

Given that this source is Mandyczewski's tabulation of the works remaining in manuscript in the Vienna Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde, does this mean these scores are present (in at least ms)? Also, does anyone have more precise dates (composition or publication) for the symphonies?

Symphonies (6 total in Grove)
Symphony in D (1814) - recording available (61'00)
Symphony in c minor, Op. 780 (1840?) - available (36'05)
Symphony in D, op. 781 (1845?) - available (40'35)
Symphony in Eb (pub. 1845) -available (40'54)
Symphony in g minor (1854?) - available (33'03)
Symphony in C?
Symphony in D or d minor?
Symphony in Bb/B? (could be g minor)

Overtures
Overture in c minor, Op. 142 -available
Overture in E (1838) -available
6 total overtures?

Concertante (excluding variations, rondeaus, etc.)
Piano Concerto in F, Op. 28 (perhaps 'No. 1')
Concerto in C for 2 pianos 'No. 2', Op. 153 (1829) -available (31'00)
Piano Concerto in a minor 'No. 3', Op. 214 (1830) -available (33'00)
perhaps 3 more Piano Concerti? (6 total)

Piano Concertino in C, Op. 78
Piano Concertino, Op. 210
Piano Concertino, Op. 650

[eschiss1]

Still haven't heard Botstein's recording of the ca.1814 symphony mentioned and described by Wyn-Jones in his book on the symphony in Vienna in Beethoven's time, though I now see it's been uploaded to YouTube. (I really need to try out that youtube to mp3 site, since that's the sort of thing I want to listen to when not connected to the net and overheating my computer ) Thanks again for pointing that out. (Had forgotten or didn't know the E-flat had been recorded too- thanks.)

I wonder incidentally if all those masses of his listed in RISM are worthwhile- not to mention the 20 or so string quartets (not just the one that exists in a modern edition), etc. ... I'm inclined to expect so. That said- it's good that this music has already been brought out, some of it twice at least, and his fine piano sonatas too of course...

The concertino in C Op.78 seems to be described in one copy as "Concertino No. III"  ("Leichtes | Conzertstück | für das | Piano Forte | mit Begleitung von | 2 Violinen, Alto und Violonzell (obligat) | nebst Flöte und 2 Waldhörner (ad libitum) | Componirt | für vorgerükte Schüler | von | Carl Czerni [!]. | 78. Werk | Wien. | [caption title, pf:] Conzertino Nro. III. | Rondo | a la | Polacca.") (this is from the header of 1860s copy-parts, though, not the autograph. Whether the "III" is Czerny's or (Emmeram or F.X.) Kreuttner's - the copyist's - I don't know. (see RISM.)

[thalbergmad]

I have an original of the Op.78 published by Diabelli and it is titled Concertstuck, but no doubt other editions may be different.

Never listened to any symphonies and it appears that most of his concertante have not been performed, but the Variations on a Theme by Haydn Op.73 has and a sparkling gem it is. Pianistic confetti perhaps, but enjoyable none the less.

Thal

[eschiss1]

Concertstück is on that ms copy/copy of edition/??? above, yes. I think I've heard at least one of the symphonies on the radio. The concertos have fared better than the concertantes it does seem, between LPs and CDs I think we probably have all of them, plus a few of the variations and rondos also and some of his choral works even (seems that counting the many unpublished works- even given the many published works there seem to have been many unpublished; maybe not surprising- there are lots of liturgical settings among other things vocal, chamber, otherwise, starting from things listed in RISM online. I should have a look for that book about Czerny...)

I see a CD from two years ago contains two string quartets of his and a piano quartet (usual layout, not 4 pianos)- I think I'd half-noticed that at the time; need to hear that too, I think; not expecting something stunning, but I have been curious... Hrm.

Hrm. I wonder who has the parts to opp. 210 and 650... (not that I know anyone who needs them to perform them, but I'd still like to reassure myself that they haven't stuck themselves into these lists without getting themselves verified occasionally... such things have a way of propagating in such cases and this was true way before the internet came around)

(Anyone looking btw for a large collection of early, unfiltered-by-modern-editors (this can be a good thing or a bad thing), editions of Czerny- mostly solo-to-small chamber ensemble Czerny digitized could do worse than to search the collection of Czerny- and lots and lots of others, but this topic is about Czerny (his orchestral works, but I don't see any there, I'm still looking though) uploaded by the State Library of Berlin.)

[eschiss1]

Re Opp.210 & 650, Worldcat turns up several hits (material, not recordings, I mean) for Op.210 but zilch for Op.650- still, Op.650 might be at a library or portion of a library not covered by Worldcat, or might be miscatalogued, or etc. I'm suggesting btw that Op.650 is lost, not that someone made a mistake in including it there in the first place (well ,I -was- suggesting that, but shouldn't have.) (Op.210 - solo part?? published 1810s (20 pages?, plate 2727, by Pleyel); republished, all parts (Stimmen), by Haslinger in ca.1829 (reviewed in Cæcilia in that year)

("Concertino für das Piano-Forte mit Begleitung von 2 violinen, Viola, Violoncello und Contrabass, nebst Flöte, 2 Hoboen oder Clarinetten, 2 Fagotten, 2 Hörnern, 2 Trompeten und Pauken, (ad libitum)" to quote the title from Newberry Library catalogue entry)

does anyone want a list of libraries that have scores/parts/reductions to the published works among the works that were listed above? I can certainly try to provide that, in case anyone is near one of them and wants to peruse one of the Czerny works listed (I have resources besides Worldcat, though not infinite ones ) (or even, if the library allows, xerox it for home browsing- though I suspect most of them are in Locked Press. Well, some few of them may be in modern editions...)

(Sym.1 is at St. Pancras (British Library), but also (in reduction?) at the Library of Congress, US (called 5th symphony in its call letters- "ML96 .C97 no. 5 (Case)" but seems to be Op.780 from other information?? still, odd...) which has the 2nd symphony also... ("Seconde grande sinfonie en Re majeur... Oeuvre 781.") and what may be the parts to Op.210 as well, again, too. Hopefully they'll scan in some of this as they have some other things...

[Balapoel]

Just knowing that scores exist (whether parts, ms, or otherwise), is useful. Czerny's work is high enough quality to pursue.

[thalbergmad]

does anyone want a list of libraries that have scores/parts/reductions to the published works among the works that were listed above? I can certainly try to provide that, in case anyone is near one of them and wants to peruse one of the Czerny works listed (I have resources besides Worldcat, though not infinite ones ) (or even, if the library allows, xerox it for home browsing- though I suspect most of them are in Locked Press. Well, some few of them may be in modern editions...)

Luca Caprotti, the Italian musicologist, has compiled a list of what is available and where. He has also scanned hundreds of works from different libraries. Since he is a large contributor to IMSLP, perhaps he might be persuaded to upload.

The Concerto Preservation Society has about 25 concertante works by Czerny, but most regretfully are solo with "prompts".

Thal

[Gareth Vaughan]

Given that this source is Mandyczewski's tabulation of the works remaining in manuscript in the Vienna Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde, does this mean these scores are present (in at least ms)?

An email to the Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde should answer this question.

[eschiss1]

Thanks. and interesting. ... Might just leave a note in Prof. Caprotti's "box" there...

(I think I've seen a couple others listed in all-parts in RISM if by concertante we're now including variations, rondos, etc. for piano and orchestra   I wouldn't mind also asking after the state of works for solo voices and/or choruses, piano and orchestra- I don't know how many he wrote, how many are missing, how many are partially missing, etc., whether he introduced anything new to the genre of the interaction between... etc. -  (I'll see if I can get to hear that Psalm 130- come to think of it, De Profundis seems to invite some composers' better efforts (... I think.) - and the one other work by Czerny in that line I think has been recorded in some form...))

[Martin Eastick]

Re Op650 - I am pleased to confirm that I have an original copy of this, published by C.A.Challier (plate no.384), but only the (cued) solo piano part. It is actually in the form of an Introduction (in A flat) followed by a Rondo in C major, in all running to 29 pages!

[eschiss1]

That's still great- someone might reconstruct it from that and perform that (or perform the solo part faute de mieux). (Indeed, I'm glad to hear it does exist. Thank you. Hrm. What's the original title if I may ask?... ("unsmoothed" ... I'm still a little annoyed that someone smoothed out "Essercizi per gravicembalo" to "Essercizii per gravicembalo"  - or something like that - @ IMSLP - made finding the original Scarlatti title in Worldcat take longer (and more thought, though admittedly not much more) than it ought have (One is supposed to smooth out suonata to sonata, etc., but the rules specify common titles. Maybe that is. Dunno...))

[eschiss1]

Here's a review (AMZ, digitized by Google Books- 18 August 1841, page 680) of the Opus 650 Concertino of Czerny.

[Balapoel]

Thanks to all that posted so far. After listening to his piano sonatas again, I find him very interesting - certainly no slave to Haydnesque or Beethovenesque 'fashion', he tread his own way. It's too bad the prolific worklist and many teaching pieces overshadowed the 'serious' pieces.

On a similar note, I have read that Czerny himself separated his pieces into 'serious', 'brillante', and 'pedagogical'. I have tried to assign values to the worklist I have created/updated - but sometimes it is difficult. The 'facile' and 'brillante' subscripts help, but not for all.

I would think the Symphonies and piano concerti would be considered 'serious', whereas the remaining variations would be 'brillante'. However, if the Concertino Op. 650 is in the form of an introduction and rondo, it's not too disimilar from others, perhaps Op 391 'Grande Rondeau-Polonaise' or Op. 122 'Grand Divertissement in the form of a Rondo brillante'.

In the chamber realm, I assume the piano quartets, string quartets, piano trios, by and large were considered by Czerny to be serious, but what about his 'Grand Fantasies or fantasia concertantes (e.g., op. 256, 512)? Is there any documentation as to which opera he assigned to which category? Grove is not helpful in this issue.

[Mark Thomas]

Is it really true, as I have read several times, that Czerny achieved his huge output by employing a team of assistants to "fill in" the outlines of compositions which he sketched out, using formulae and compositional templates which he had developed, rather in the manner that some of Sullivan's G&S overtures were hurriedly patched together by his assistants, from passages in the operas themselves?

[Ilja]

And if so, do we know the relative extent of what was Czerny's work and what was done by these anonymous assistants? In the case of Rembrandt, for instance, the canonical view is that Rembrandt prepared his paintings to be 'finished' by pupils or assistants - this allows for works of ambivalent origin to remain 'real Rembrandts'. The problem is that we seldom know where Rembrandt's work ended and the assistant's started, and this type of collaboration sits uneasily with the common idea of a work of art always being conceived by one creator.