The Raff Symphonies: which one is your favourite and why?

[Kevin]

Oh please don't get me started on HIP of Beethoven symphonies - they sound  terrible to my ears! whoosh - All the romanticism is gone from them. If people enjoy Jarvi's performances that's fine by me but I grew up on Bernard Herrmann's magnificent account which just ''sounds right'' too me. I'm more than happy to live with a ''wrong'' interpretation.

[Alan Howe]

Spot-on, Gareth. Thanks.

[Kevin]

I just want to add that is was that recording of Hermann's 5th that made me a Raff lover for life. I immediately knew Raff was something special, and made me want to explore more of his works and I haven't looked back. My allegiance is therefore very strong to that recording, and I don't think it will ever be broken.

[Justin]

Isn't it possibly the case that our introduction to the symphony was a performance in which slower tempi were adopted so we have got used to that

If the roles were reversed, where Herrmann was faithful to the markings and Järvi was much slower, some may have said that he ruined it by being too "sluggish." I agree with Kevin that it is preferable, but it certainly isn't "awful" in my opinion. As Mark has said, the music keeps up and it doesn't lose its effectiveness. That helps demonstrate just how skilled Raff was as an orchestrator.

[Mark Thomas]

Järvi's tempi are definitely what Raff would have expected to hear - von Bülow once wrote that "with Raff everything goes rather quickly". It's true that to those of us who cut our teeth on Herrmann's rendition of Lenore, Järvi's account came as something of a shock, but it's the one which I listen to most often now. I do think, though, that his orchestra scrambles somewhat to keep up in the first few bars, and that gives an impression of "too fast" which can easily stick in the memory, even though the rest of the performance is impeccable. FWIW, Kevin, my advice is to stick with it - the performance is really quite revelatory once you're used to it.

[Alan Howe]

Järvi in Raff isn't really as radical as Norrington in, say, Beethoven - for example, he doesn't dispense with vibrato in the string section (which I dislike). It's really just a question of tempi and here he is evidently much more faithful to Raff than, say, Herrmann. Having said which, I don't think one has to choose. Why not have both and learn to appreciate them both?

[Kevin]

Why not have both and learn to appreciate them both?

Yeah, I only listened to Jarvi once because I was left speechless of the speeds he took with all the movements(how can he do this to Raff I thought?) I think I will give him another go and listen with fresh eyes(ears?) No promises if I'll like it though 

[Gareth Vaughan]

I don't think one has to choose. Why not have both and learn to appreciate them both?

I totally agree, Alan.

[Kevin]

Ok I've given this Lenore another go, several gos in fact, and I must admit I've warmed to it more than I expected. I think in my case I like to think of it as one long tone poem all played at an exhilarating tempo which works quite well(it's not a traditional symphony when played like this in my view, which is fine maybe that's what Raff intended, I have no idea). The slow and march movements are still too fast for me but I can live with it. It's not going to replace Herrmann or Stadlmair for me but I can now see the virtues of it more clearly, it helps to have an open mind like others have said(quite frankly I conditioned my mind to it as if it was the first time I've heard the symphony - it worked.) It helps enormously that we have a world class orchestra do justice to Raff's virtuoso orchestration, always a big plus in my book and the studio sound captures many tiny details missing in other recordings. I take it back, it would've been, at the very least, interesting what Jarvi could have done with the 3rd and 4th symphonies. Honestly, I'd like another set of the Seasons Symphonies, my next favourite Raff(I've a strong fondness for the 8th and 9th).

[Mark Thomas]

One final thought on Lenore. The poem on which Raff based the symphony is, essentially, a nightmare and his fast tempi underline that feverish quality in the music. As for the final four symphonies, the Eighth Symphony in particular still lacks a recommendable recorded performance.   

[MartinH]

No recommendable Eighth? I have Stadlmair, Albert, Schneider and Lehel. Maybe I should sit down with a score, but at least the first two sound fine to me. (Given the circumstances of the recording biz, I wonder if there will ever be any more recordings of Raff symphonies.)

[FBerwald]

I think what Mark means (and I agree with him) is that as far as the splendid 8th is concerned, none of the performance has done justice to it properly. Most of the recordings are fine. The Albert in particular is a disaster - Sounds like the recording of an early rehearsal. Schneider and Lehel are fine. Only Stadlmair gives us a performance that has some punch to it but here his tempo is a bit rushed and one longs to hear the finer details. I think the main problem is that since Raff is such a fantastic orchestrator, it takes a dedicated and committed conductor to bring out all the nuances - Raff's woodwind and Brass writing are nothing short of genius. I also think most people (conductors) take for granted the one accusation against Raff that seems to persist - that he writes banal tunes at times. I don't think so. Instead he (as did Godard in many of his works) uses short seemingly uninteresting tunes and develops them into massive structures. In any case... lets hope there's a Raff set still to come, that gives us a fine 8th finally.

[Mark Thomas]

Thanks, FBerwald, that saves me some writing! For me, Albert's interpretation had the potential to show the symphony off at its best, but the performance and recording itself are dismal, a great shame. Stadlmair came close in the first three movements, but then throws it all away in the finale, which comes over as an almost trite tail-chasing piece. Raff's contemporaries criticised the bustle of the finale, missing the point that it is intentionally anxious and nervy, illustrating the restlessness which Raff himself felt at the onset of spring. Unfortunately Stadlmair made the same mistake.

[vesteel]

It's cliche at this point but Im Walde will always be my favorite. It is one of the works by him that I first encountered and loved (Also, is anyone familiar of this live performance of it by a Japanese Orchestra? https://youtu.be/Jl6GdVS6bkM)
Other than that, The Winter, Autumn, and the 2nd symphonies are quite high as well.

[Mark Thomas]

Nothing wrong at all with having Im Walde as your favourite - it's one of Raff's masterpieces. Thanks for the link to the Japanese performance - new to me.