Raiders of the Lost Composers

[Alan Howe]

That's an interesting question. Lenore was first performed in Berlin in October 1873 - and Raff's music was apparently often performed in Moscow and St Petersburg in that period:
http://www.raff.org/life/peers/tchaik.htm

But the proof's also in the music, I think.

[anssik]

As was pointed out by someone in some British newspaper (I don't recall who it was, when, and where) the opening of the James Bond theme by John Barry is exactly like the beginning of Sibelius Cassazione. Well, Sibelius isn't unsung but perhaps his Cassazione, a work seldom performed or even recorded, is. Of course, it's not at all likely that Barry knew this part of Sibelius' oeuvre; so what we have here is most likely a mildly interesting co-incidence, a sort of minuscule mystery of creation.

[jerfilm]

Amphissa makes the important point, I think.  Given the nature of our 12 note scale, there are a finite number of ways to put together a melody and keep it tonal.  Granted, the number of combinations is large, but it definitely is finite.   Or would it be permutations?  Well no matter, you get the idea.

Jerry

[khorovod]

"That's an interesting question. Lenore was first performed in Berlin in October 1873 - and Raff's music was apparently often performed in Moscow and St Petersburg in that period... But the proof's also in the music, I think."


The proof if proof it is (a moot point) is only in the music. Since we don't know if Tchaikovsky was familiar with the symphony at all everything else is assumption, however much we might want it to be true that Tchaikovsky was influenced by the symphony to reinforce (a subjective view of?) Raff's significance. I reckon its a step too far to claim that Tchaikovsky "clearly did" plagiarise on that alone no matter how authoritatively the statement is made. Words like "undoubtedly", "clearly" etc. seem to be used a lot these days to lend an air of objectivity to what are only personal opinions such as that Raff and Tchaikovsky were artists of equal stature... some (and many here at UC) will probably agree about that but many won't and I am one of them. Sorry!

** Sticks head back below parapet! ** 

[LateRomantic75]

Indeed. Just because this is a forum focused on promoting "unsung" composers doesn't mean we can demean "sung" composers to the benefit of their "unsung" compatriots. I will stick with my opinion that Tchaikovsky was a genius and Raff was a minor master.

[Mark Thomas]

I don't think that anyone is denying Tchaikovsky's genius, are they? Neither does according that status to him, necessarily demote Raff to the status of "minor master". There's no either/or in the situation. What does seem to me to be beyond question is the absolutely remarkable similarity in melody, harmony and orchestration of the two passages, that Raff's work predates Tchaikovsky's by several years, and was a very well known and frequently played work at the time. Beyond that, I think it's difficult to go with any certainty. The two passages certainly have many more similarities than quite a few of the examples given here.

Personally, I wouldn't accuse Tchaikovsky, or some of the other "borrowers" cited in this thread of plagiarism, but I am sure that there must have been many instances of a composer thinking an idea was original, when in fact it derives from something heard and subsequently forgotten by the conscious mind. In the Tchaikovsky/Raff case, the passage is an isolated episode in the slow movement of Raff's 10th Symphony, which he doesn't develop. Tchaikovsky, on the other hand, uses the idea as the very bedrock on his symphony's slow movement.

[TerraEpon]

As was pointed out by someone in some British newspaper (I don't recall who it was, when, and where) the opening of the James Bond theme by John Barry is exactly like the beginning of Sibelius Cassazione. Well, Sibelius isn't unsung but perhaps his Cassazione, a work seldom performed or even recorded, is. Of course, it's not at all likely that Barry knew this part of Sibelius' oeuvre; so what we have here is most likely a mildly interesting co-incidence, a sort of minuscule mystery of creation.

Well there's no less than twice that Beethoven seems to 'copy' Mozart -- an overture that sounds like the beginning of the Eroica, and a choral work that sounds like Ode to Joy -- but the likelyhood of Beethoven having heard these pieces is almost nil.

[Amphissa]

Well, my point was not that Tchaikovsky didn't borrow anything from other composers (including Raff).

My point was -- All composers of the era did that. And I would hazard that Raff pilfered from other composers just as they pilfered from him. There was no copyright back then and it was common practice. You see it in all the arts. You see paintings by different artists that are stylistically very much alike and portraying the same content. Even more relevant, consider Warhol's Marilyn diptych. He took a publicity photo from a decade earlier and used it to create his artistic piece.

The pilfering in classical music continues even today, even in this age of obsessive copyright. There have been many articles about Golijov and Adams cribbing from other composers. John Williams is the poster boy for this tactic, though.

The thing is, if Tchaikovsky did use a passage of Raff's as a starting point (1) are we sure Raff didn't get the idea from some other composer? And (2) Tchaikovsky obviously did not simply copy Raff's music, he took an idea (if he did) and created a masterly piece out of it -- and created something that Raff obviously did not think of doing with that bit of music.

Bernstein once provided a very clear discussion of how Wagner took some thematic ideas by Berlioz and crafted the music for Tristan and Isolde from those thematic ideas. Wagner never "gave credit" to Berlioz, just as Strauss never "gave credit" for the ideas he adopted from Wagner.

It was common to do this during that era. It's a big "so what?" issue as far as I'm concerned.

[Alan Howe]

I think that Tchaikovsky knew Raff's music very well. Listen, for example, to the finale of Raff 3 and you'll find a certain march theme that seems to want to morph into the third movement of the Pathétique. I know I only have my ears, but the likeness is very obvious.

I probably shouldn't have used the word 'plagiarism'. What I meant was that the Raff 10/Tchaik 5 case seems like a pretty clear instance of borrowing - whether intentional or not.   

And I don't think I ever demeaned Tchaikovsky in favour of Raff. The former is an established great. Raff was certainly that - and I hope to live to see his name 'up in lights' once again.

[Alan Howe]

Tchaikovsky obviously did not simply copy Raff's music, he took an idea (if he did) and created a masterly piece out of it -- and created something that Raff obviously did not think of doing with that bit of music.

I think that's pretty well what I said in reply #27 - except I should have said 'borrowed'...

[minacciosa]

That Raff/Tchaikovsky example is uncanny. Here's one not mentioned yet.

George Gershwin purloined the tune for "I Got Rhythm" from William Grant Still. Still first wrote the tune while he was playing in the band for Eubie Blake's "Shuffle Along", and working on his Symphony No.1 "Afro-American". Gershwin was a frequent visitor to the show, where he would hear the musicians improvising all sorts of remarkable things. Still was improvising and working out material for the symphony at that time, which is established in his notebooks. Still was apparently shocked to hear his tune turn up in "Girl Crazy", but he used it anyway in the symphony's third movement scherzo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dQ0bjXN7pU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7ZOAVraaRU

[chill319]

Blatant "borrowing" is found in one of Delius's best known works, "On Hearing the First Cuckoo in Spring"; both the melodic material and also its characteristic harmonizations come directly from Grieg's op. 66, no. 14, "I Ola-Dalon, i Ola-Kjonn." Were this movie music, Delius would receive his due in the rolling credits but Grieg would take home the Oscar for the score.

[regriba]

I am quite sure that both the Delius and the Grieg are based on the same Norwegian folksong - hence the similarity. But it is also very possible that Delius got the tune through Grieg, since the two composers were close friends. Actually the Oscar-winner might well be Ludvig Mathias Lindeman, who collected and published many of the folk-tunes used by Grieg.

[Alkanator]

One of the main themes from John Williams' score for 'Home Alone' appears in the third movement of Ludolf Nielsen's third symphony, almost verbatim. Given how little Ludolf Nielsen seems to have been played, however, it could just be a coincidence.

[Archimus]

Then there's that bit in Strauss's 4 Last Songs which provides the theme for "Jesus Christ, Superstar", which is a bit queasy.  But one of the unlikeliest links is that the main theme of Rubbra's 8th Symphony is identical to Janacek's "Cunning Little Vixen"!