Franz Clement: Violin Concertos 1 & 2

[eschiss1]

btw, the parts of the Clement D minor concerto are digitized. It's not a score, but you can follow along from the violin part, say (comes in after the timpani part)-


http://digital.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/werkansicht/?PPN=PPN630059241

(and yes, the plate is 1540, my bad)

[Mark Thomas]

Please, could we once and for freaking all stop with "written in" 1810

Well, sorry for upsetting you so, Eric. I took this in good faith from the programme notes for the concert at which the work was recorded. The same goes for the fact that it was "discovered in manuscript" at the Bayerische Staatsbibliothek. I have indeed since seen that it is listed in worldcat.org as having been published.

[eschiss1]

Perhaps the manuscript is -also- there, and I know I am given to more than a bit of overreaction (I would say "before my coffee" but since I don't -drink- coffee...)  -- I mislike having to take -everything- on their word, mind. And I've since not only found the published version mentioned on Worldcat but even in a form digitized/uploaded by SBB (different library, true) that one can verify for one's own self.

(BSB Munich does list the published version in their catalog as well, if somewhat confusingly- not, at least not that I see, a manuscript form, but then what would be the point of "discovering" something already in plain sight in the online catalog... hrm, I shouldn't ask that, happens all the time and I can certainly understand how...)

[Alan Howe]

Please, could we once and for freaking all stop with "written in" 1810 when the evidence only allows for "published in" or "published by/around"?]Please, could we once and for freaking all stop with "written in" 1810 when the evidence only allows for "published in" or "published by/around"?

Well, it's not always clear, Eric - as you and I both found out when trying to establish when Lassen's VC was (i) written and (ii) first performed. Multiple sources often quote varying dates. So, while I agree in principle, clarity is sometimes hard to establish.

To return to Clement's VC2, the notes (in German) which accompany the first modern performance say:

"1810 entstanden" = "composed in 1810"
"Es ist 1807/1808 im Druck erschienen" = "appeared in print in 1807/1808"   

Can anyone be surprised when different dates are quoted - especially when they are contradictory?

In addition, apparently the conductor, Reinhard Goebel, discovered the work in the Berlin State Library - but whether it was in manuscript or printed form is not made clear.

[eschiss1]

Also and BTW, I had the publisher confused- this was not Beethoven's publisher "Bureau des Arts et d'Industrie"/"Kunst- und Industrie-Comptoir". The publisher of the Clement concerto 2 and a number of his other works, "Magasin de l'Imprimerie Chimique" - possibly the French version/translation of "Chemische Druckerey" (German name) which was an ancestor-imprint of the famous publisher Tobias Haslinger? That makes sense, actually. And in the Haslinger plate-table a plate of 1540 would fit- hrm- somewhere between 1805 and 1812. That's all I know at this moment, I think. Will have to figure out more...)

[Alan Howe]

...forthcoming from Sony:
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/violinkonzerte-1-2/hnum/9522547

[matesic]

I assume one of these is the D minor concerto of 1810 of which all the orchestral parts as well as the soloist's are available on IMSLP. Pretty standard classical fare by the look of it - not exactly inspiring!

[matesic]

The D minor concerto can be heard on youtube, same conductor but different violinist. Also a concerto in D major with a duration of 40 minutes...

[jdperdrix]

The D major is already available by Rachel Barton Pine and the RPO under José Serebrier. It was created one year before Beethoven's own D major. The soloist for Beethoven's was Franz Clement  who, possibly, revised Beethoven's violin part. The D minor was the first large-scale minor violin concerto by a German composer and was created a few years after Beethoven's. These three works show lots of mutual influences.

The D minor is indeed available on youtube, but with a fairly bad-quality sound.

This recording is most welcome for the D minor, at least.

[Hector]

It is a bit disappointing if it is the same D major concerto that has already been recorded. I would be much more likely to buy it if it were two I had not heard before, do recording companies not do an internet search before embarking on recording projects?

The Clement Concerto Barton Pine recorded is delightful although inevitably suffers from being so directly compared with Beethoven's Concerto in the sleeve notes and by being in the same Cd package. However the similarities between the two do rather demonstrate how the "greats" often took ideas and inspiration from the "not so greats".

The recording of the Clement in D minor on You Tube sounds to me as if the finale has been cut.

[Alan Howe]

I'll be buying this despite the duplication...

[Alan Howe]

No.1 in D major, as we've said before, is a major work so similar in concept and feel to Beethoven's great work in the same key that its influence on the latter is palpable. And now we have No.2 in D minor/major, which is a rather more romantic-sounding work and which, as Reinhard Goebel's sleevenote suggests, actually shares more 'dependencies' with Beethoven's VC than No.1. Goebel also points out that there are 'striking similarities' with Reicha's Sinfonia Concertanta for 2 Cellos.

Clearly someone is going to have do some proper musicological research into the complexities of 'Beethoven's World'...

BTW I've merged this thread with the older one on VC2 - I think it makes sense.

[Mark Thomas]

This is a thoroughly recommendable disc. Both works are large scale pieces of real stature which receive very committed and persuasive performances. Quite a lot has been made of the mutual debt owed by Beethoven and Clement, and you can certainly appreciate that hearing both these pieces, but Clement was clearly his own man and no more an epigone of Beethoven than Reicha was. On the strength of these two violin concertos, I'd love to hear his Piano Concerto Op.5, published in 1803.