American Orchestras' Dismal Future

[Double-A]

Isn't six full rehearsals of 2.5h each plus sectionals a little much for top level pros--even for a piece nobody knows?  From my days in the Academic Orchestra in Zurich--they are amateurs--I remember it like this:  We had weekly rehearsals plus a rehearsal weekend per semester (maybe worth four of five rehearsals) making up a total of at most 20 rehearsals (of 2h not 2.5) per program.  The programs were maybe 90 - 120 min of music, i.e. 3 to 4 times the half hour here discussed.  And the music was almost always chosen from unsung repertoire, i.e. every piece was new to everyone.  Or have you ever played the overture of "Hunyady Laszlo" by Ferenc Erkel?^*)  Or the sinfonietta by Rimsky Korsakow?  Or the "Indianische Phantasie" by Busoni?

So in fact we--the amateurs with a less than ideal schedule (a week between rehearsals is enough time to forget some of the progress made)--had to make do with not much more than 6 rehearsals per half hour, sectionals included.  I would have expected good professionals to come prepared and to be able to get by with 3 rehearsals even for 20th century levels of difficulty.

^*)BTW more than 30 years ago I saw a performance of "Hunyady Laszlo" in the opera in Budapest.  Here is an opera--sung in Hungary, but unsung everywhere else--which merits some attention (Hunyady is a national hero in Hungary).  Nice verbunkos style Hungarian/Gipsy music, a good story with battles and people jailed unjustly etc. well told.

[J Joe Townley]

Fortunately top orchestras just don't work like that - they aren't simply guns for hire who will do anything if the price is right. In practice, if you're a composer with no track record who wants to sponsor a vanity project you could offer it to a decent amateur orchestra who might put it on (provided it isn't complete rubbish) for a donation of 5 grand. As for the players each devoting 9 days of work to it, dream on!

I've gotten dozens of very nice comments on it on YouTube so I think it's appealing. But amateur orchestras have miserable brass sections that can't even play a simple brass triad flush (together). This piece is brass-heavy. Plus sour strings. Here's  the best I could hope for

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHsnVXMGn2I 

[jerfilm]

But amateur orchestras have miserable brass sections that can't even play a simple brass triad flush (together)

Now there's a generalization for you!   I'm not sure exactly how one would define an "amateur" orchestra, but I've personally heard several that were really quite good.   Often, they draw numerous musicians from the faculties of local college and universitys.   I expect if they weren't dedicated teaching professionals, theyd be competing for first chairs in some professional orchestra. 

J

[J Joe Townley]

Yes, a few are good but most are bad. It's the luck of the draw depending on if you're fortunate to be in an area where a good amateur orchestra is.

[MartinH]

Actually, professional orchestras are "guns for hire" if the price is right. After all, they have to make money to stay in business. The London Symphony - one of the very best in the world - does it's share of recordings that would seem at odds with their training and background.  And they sight read so well that I imagine there are concerts and recordings they make with one run-through then record.

The range of abilities of amateur orchestra brass sections is all over the place. From terrible to dazzling. Same with the winds. Strings tend to be weaker - intonation is the big problem. Having a top-notch percussion section is a real treat for amateurs. The problem is playing enough repertoire with really good drum parts that keep players excited and interested enough to keep showing up. But the music that does that is often not the kind of stuff that the amateur wind and strings can handle.

There are some amateur groups that I have played with that play brilliantly. The "secret" lies with the music director: don't let just anyone into the ensemble; they must play at a high level. Intonation, rhythm, style, bowing, vibrato - all those basic musicianship things matter. When you have high-caliber players it makes playing more enjoyable for everyone and you can get a lot more done. But let one lousy player in, and stay in, someone who can't play in tune, can't count, can balance volume and it is very upsetting to better players who will eventually quit rather than put up with it. And that takes a strong music director, board of directors, and section. As I tell people who have been criticized, or let go, if you want to be in the music business, you'd better have a really thick skin.

[J Joe Townley]

There is that--he politics of keeping a bad player in because he's the brother-in=-law of a board member and needs a paycheck, no matter how meager. Another aspect is the flood of musicians graduating higher learning institutions who have to find jobs. Watch some YouTube videos. These freelance players are excellent; they'd give most professional members of orchestras a run for their money and would be thrilled to work for half the salary. Here is where the unions become poison; someone sitting there with a stopwatch is about the craziest thing I've ever heard. Only 300K for a (b) ass-oon player is crazier. And the funny thing is if the LA Phil is fully funded then that means they get their money from wealthy patrons and as long as there are enough wealthy patrons to fill 3000 seats or whatever Disney Hall holds LA Phil will never have to worry. Like Pharmaceuticals, Health Care Ins. and oil co's all orchestras will be whittled down to a few survivors who can charge whatever they want and hire the cream and all these other musicians graduating will be flipping burgers and just picking up sporadic gigs wherever they can. There'll be no coherent pattern of employment to all this; each musician will have to jimmy-rig their work schedules as best they can with whatever scraps are lying around.

I haven't been to the LA Phil in 30 years but the seats at Dorothy Chandler were only half filled then after intermission because the tickets were so high. Wonder what it's like now.

[MartinH]

LA concerts are generally 90-95% filled up. First, there's the undeniable allure of The Dude. Whether he's really great or not doesn't matter. People go to see and hear him. And then, because of the budget they have, the list of guest conductors is top-drawer. Their soloists are world-class, too. They play a wide range of music but excel in the big things. And they play superbly. Their hall is wonderful - one of the best. And there's a lot of wealth in LA, and for most of the concert goers, dropping $250 for a pair of tickets is nothing. That's what's sad. Many music lovers have simply been priced out of attending. The LA area is blessed with several other orchestras that are extremely fine and offer great concerts at reasonable prices. But they are struggling. The players are on a per-service contract, unlike LA Phil. I wonder how many more years they can hang on? The high rollers who spend so much for LA Phil concerts will not be traveling to Glendale, Pasadena, or Orange County for symphony concerts, which is their loss.

You mention the numerous music graduates: one group I play in has mostly amateurs, many of whom took lessons and really worked hard. But they made their career as engineers, lawyers, doctors, teachers, etc. But there are five players who actually were performance majors on flute, bassoon, horn, violin, and trombone. They are excellent and play principal in their sections. And they are quite sad, angry, frustrated that as good as they are there just aren't many openings for professionals and the competition is fierce. So now they take jobs beneath their wishes and suffer in amateur orchestras just to keep their fingers and chops in shape. It must be so demoralizing. What must it be like to have a masters degree from Julliard, have subbed with NY and Philadelphia, and now work at Starbucks by day, play with us rookies at night?

[J Joe Townley]

Yes, MartinH, you said precisely what I wasn't able to find the words to say: LA is a money mecca and by just sheer numbers the LA Phil can find enough subscribers/patrons out of roughly 20 million people in the Southland to support them. It has to do with climate, the cosmopolitan, demographic--its location relative to Asia where most of the money comes in--and other things that draw so many people with money who want a cultural symbol for their families/children, etc With that kind of population here $250 a head is chump change to them, but the little guy gets priced out. More of us vs "them". If you're willing to drop a few hundred dollars you too can rub shoulders with the rich but not mingle with them. It's an exclusive club.

Even in the 70's when I was going to Cal State we had a bass player that was in a 2-year wait for his name to rise to the top of the list. As other base players died off he finally got that audition call and was hired. He stayed with them for decades. I only remember his first name, John. It's a job for life doing what you love to do. I'd sell my soul to do it all over. I'd drop piano like a hot potato and take up violin. If I could have achieved the virtuosity on violin I did on piano I'd still be working there, married one of the members, had kids---the whole nine yards.

[Double-A]

The range of abilities of amateur orchestra brass sections is all over the place. From terrible to dazzling. Same with the winds. Strings tend to be weaker - intonation is the big problem.

Not true.  Intonation is at least as hard for wind and brass players (have you never heard bad intonation from French Horns?  If so you are a lucky person).  Strings--playing collectively--tend to somewhat cancel out individual intonation mishaps.

Interesting that nobody mentions conductors in this context.  The quality of amateur orchestras varies lately with the teaching ability of their conductors.  It takes skills a conductor of professionals doesn't necessarily need to rehearse amateurs (though they would probably help there too), most notably patience and also the ability to focus on the most important problems.  It helps if the conductor plays an important orchestra instrument.  And his language in the rehearsals should be less technical than for pros.

Also important is the programming:  If you want to premiere a difficult piece you must program "easy" music to combine with it, preferably even music you have performed before so you have a core of members who have already rehearsed those pieces.

[rosflute]

Some very odd musings going on here - are they meant to be tongue in cheek? An orchestra is an entity whose strength lies in its ability to play in a homogeneous style, something that is only achievable by daily practice. Players [and I know, because I am one] have to mould their tones to match everyone else in the section and rely on an almost telepathic awareness of what others in the orchestra are doing. Amateurs, however skilled, coming together once a week cannot achieve this. If you read the writings of Dame Ethel Smyth, you will come across her views as a composer and conductor, on the difference between the orchestras who fully rehearse works and those [British especially] who do not. This forum exists in part due to the many great works that were let down at the first performance by an under-rehearsed airing.

[jerfilm]

If you'd like to hear the LA Philharmonic for $60 a ticket, you should get your name on the waiting list with the Palm Springs Friends of Philharmonic.  One of the 6 winter (Jan-Mar) concerts is I guess traditionally the LAP.  There are 1100 seats in the McCallum theater and the entire season is always a sellout.  Good stuff, too.  6 global orchestras annually.   This year, for example, the Royal Philharmonic - Zukerman conducting and playing and last week the St. Louis with a snappy reading of Mahler 3. 

Not sure how they can afford to get the LA here, but no one argues.......

Jerry
I know, off topic....

[MartinH]

Also important is the programming:  If you want to premiere a difficult piece you must program "easy" music to combine with it, preferably even music you have performed before so you have a core of members who have already rehearsed those pieces.

That's a real problem. There are too many semi-conductors with huge egos, bad ears, and little understanding who over-program all the time. It's demoralizing to the orchestra. But worse, it turns off would-be supporters who know music but can't stand hearing it played poorly. And it's really bad for people whose first concert experience is a train wreck. They come out thinking, "No wonder no one likes classical music if it sounds that bad!"

One of those coming up soon: 4 rehearsals, mostly all amateurs, a weak conductor who can't get his head out of a score and Rosenkavalier Suite, Essay no. 1 by Barber, then Ravels' take on Pictures at an Exhibition. All very difficult and time consuming. One of those would be enough, but conductor's egos are hard to understand.

[minacciosa]

You could get it done overseas for around 20-40k US, not including airfare, hotel and soloist's fee.

[Double-A]

There are too many semi-conductors with huge egos, bad ears, and little understanding who over-program all the time.

....

One of those coming up soon: 4 rehearsals, mostly all amateurs, a weak conductor who can't get his head out of a score and Rosenkavalier Suite, Essay no. 1 by Barber, then Ravels' take on Pictures at an Exhibition. All very difficult and time consuming. One of those would be enough, but conductor's egos are hard to understand.

Hear, hear!

I quit an orchestra about a year ago over the following program (with--if I remember correctly--8 rehearsals):  Stravinsky Firebird Suite; Tschaikowsky Capriccio Italient (the old error to think that "pop" is easy?); by Dvorak an unsung piece (truly unsung), Variations for Orchestra or some such title; a piece by John Corigliano (which turned out to be the least challenging of them all except for its modernist language).  The conductor was competent, somebody that is who can give readable upbeats and correct cues etc.  Not someone who spends hours in meditation over a score though.  And a just terrible rehearsing style:  Used the performance tempo right from the start, practically never tried to get something right below tempo first, no focus on any particular problem, no persistence in trying to solve a problem before moving on to the next.  He would give instructions, have the orchestra play the passage once and move on the next problem, almost regardless of how it sounded.  He also overlooked a place where Stravinsky put in "minim = crotchet" i.e. slow down by 50% and conducted right through in an absurd tempo.
After four rehearsals with hardly any progress at all I decided to quit (I am not generally a quitter).  They (the conductor and most members) were totally surprised at what I told them (as politely as I could).  They all seemed to feel that everything was completely ok.

[eschiss1]

I'm surprised to hear Dvorak's Symphonic Variations described as unsung. -Very- surprised. (Let's see- ok, I admit, Dvorak "Symphonic Variations" 1877 only turns up 10,200 Google hits, but...)

(BTW the folk-like theme of the set, composed by Dvorak and earlier in 1877 used as the theme of a work for chorus, is very similar to the theme of the variations of the (B-flat major) finale of one of Nikolay Myaskovsky's symphonies, no.11 in B-flat minor of 1931-2.)