Another Elgar 'Symphony'?

[Double-A]

I think it is interesting to remember in this context that before the invention of recording music such "unorchestrations" were the only way to get to hear the orchestral repertoire outside a concert hall.  So piano reductions (often 4 hand) were issued of many orchestral pieces as the closest thing available to a CD (a bit more work involved in "listening" to them).

[Ilja]

I really enjoy listening to such reductions every now and then because, by their very nature, their a stylized version of the original. And while they may lack some of the richness of their orchestral counterpart, they're very good for getting the essence of a piece.

[semloh]

Ah, yes, good points! I had quite forgotten the need for versions that could be performed 'domestically', sans orchestra; and I agree entirely about them getting to the heart of the composition. They can certainly reveal aspects that might be lost in a full scale performance.

[sdtom]

I wonder what members think of 'un-orchestrations'- those works that are originally for orchestra but are arranged for small ensembles or solo instruments? I rather like Elgar's short orchestral works arranged for violin & piano, or piano solo, for  example.

You've raised an interesting point on something I've never thought of. Someday I would like to hear Scheherazade performed by a quartet. Just one example

[Alan Howe]

Really? Not for me, I'm afraid. All that wonderful orchestration gone...

[Mark Thomas]

I would have agreed had I not listened to the piano eight hands arrangement of Mahler's 2nd Symphony (details and audio extracts here). Of course, you do lose all the thrilling orchestration, but what you get in return is a sort of added clarity because the work is pared down to its essentials. It doesn't replace the original and neither is it better than it, but you can have both! Of course, I'm not generalising about all such arrangements, but I do think that Heinrich von Bocklet's 1914 arrangement is very effective.

[mbhaub]

I compare these arrangements to what B/W photos are to color. Without the glaring orchestration you can hear harmonies, counterpoint, form, and other musical concepts perhaps cleaner. And, when driving the roadster, soft orchestral writing is often hard to hear even with the volume cranked up. But especially in piano arrangements that's not a problem.

I have owned the piano 4-hand arrangement of the Raff 5th for 40 years - it's hard to find someone to play it with. I hope that someday some enterprising duo will tackle it and record it. It's an awful lot of fun to play - and it's quite difficult!

[Alan Howe]

Just listening now to the Piano Quintet orchestration. Amazing how much it anticipates the sound-world of the 3rd Symphony; amazing too how much it sounds like echt-Elgar in orchestral mode. This could easily pass for a three-movement Elgar symphony. Hats off to Donald Fraser! Especially for the slow movement, which is simply tremendous in its lyricism and power.

So now we have a five-strong symphonic canon:
No.1 in G major, Op.28 (1895) (Organ Sonata, orch. Gordon Jacob)
No.2 in A flat, Op.55 (1908)
No.3 in E flat, Op.63 (1911)
No.4 in A minor, Op.84 (1919) (Piano Quintet, orch. Donald Fraser)
No.5 in C minor, Op.88 (1933) (elaborated from sketches for No.3 by Anthony Payne)

[Mark Thomas]

I was going to pass on this one, but if it's that good...

[Alan Howe]

Oh, it's better than good. It's absolutely brilliant.

[Mark Thomas]

I shall hold you to that. Downloading as I type...

[Alan Howe]

Just had another listen. It was better than the first one...

[Jimfin]

Don't forget "The Black Knight", symphony for chorus and orchestra, (1893). One of the earliest all-sung symphonies around.

[Gareth Vaughan]

I have a score of The Black Knight. It is described on the title page as "Cantata for Chorus and Orchestra", not a symphony. And indeed its structure is in no way symphonic.

[Alan Howe]

According to Wikipedia "Elgar described the work as a 'symphony for chorus and orchestra', though the publishers, Novello, described it as a cantata." I think the publishers were correct...