Anton Rubinstein - Symphony No 5

[FBerwald]

I just finished listening to Anton Rubinstein's Symphony No 5 on Marco Polo. What a beautiful piece ...and very RUSSIAN from a man mocked for just the opposite by the FIVE!!!
The Ist movement is very gripping.
The IInd movement is the so Sprightly... (played this over and over again!!!)

Any opinions on this work.
(or is it just the MAGIC of No. 5 ?!?)

[Delicious Manager]

I'm afraid I have never been able to muster much enthusiasm for Rubinstein's music. For me it lacks true melodic invention, taught structural discipline and any truly clear voice. It is certainly not 'Nationalistic' in the way The Five might have wanted; it is very Germanic in spirit and sound - more so even than Tchaikovsky (whom they also criticised).

I listened to the Symphony No 5 again to make sure I wasn't being too harsh, but my opinion was only reinforced. To my ears the style is a mixture of Tchaikovsky and Brahms without either the wonderful melodies and drama of the former or the structural discipline and taughtness of the latter.

Not one for me, I'm sorry to say.

[Pengelli]

I remember the library having a copy of the old Turnabout Lp of his 'Ocean Symphony',when I was a teenager,some years ago!! I remember enjoying it & that it had one quite memorable tune. I haven't heard it since,but I keep meaning to buy the Naxos cd. It seems to me a work with a certain naive charm about it & rather good in a way. Unfortunately,Rubinstein doesn't seem to have really known how to sort the chaff from the wheat,as they say.
I also,had two of the Piano Concerto's,the once famous fourth & the fifth. The fifth struck me as,superficially, quite an impressive work,With quite a fun finale,but it wasn't something I wanted to listen to allot. Eventually,I gave them away to someone who aparently enjoyed them allot more than I did. The Fourth was performed,incidentally,by Shura Cherkassky,(Decca).

[john_boyer]

For me, only two of Rubinstein's symphonies have a chance at revival: the original version of the 2nd (before he turned it into a bloated oceanic suite), and the 5th. 

The 5th is certainly the most Russian of the five.  While it displays the perpetual Rubinstein problem with respect to development and organization of ideas, it is chock full of memorable tunes and exciting effects.  It's one of his very happiest creations.

The overt Russian quality of the work is a reflection of Rubinstein's change of heart regarding nationalist music.  Several works from that period (1880 and the years preceding) reflect this strong nationalist flavor, the 2nd Cello Concerto and the Caprice Russe being prime examples.

The 5th is also one of his more cleverly scored works.  He achieves quite a bit with what is just slightly more than a Haydn orchestra: 2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons, 4 horns, 2 trumpets, tympani, and strings.  That's it.  No trombones, no tuba, no piccolo, no exotic visitors of any kind.  That's quite an achievement.

[mbhaub]

Rubinstein just isn't a very good symphonist, or opera composer for that matter. The "Ocean" symphony does find its way to the cd player occassionally (in the 4-movement version), but the other symphonies and opera (The Demon) haven't been heard in this house in a long, long time. Rubinstein's strength lies in his solo piano works. There are many of them that I just love -- no, not the Melody in F. Despite his weaknesses, it hasn't stopped my from collecting an obscene number of cds with his music. It's embarassing, but I have more Rubinstein than Schumann, Schubert, Mendelssohn or Mozart -- combined! Another strength is in the piano concerto, especially the last three. They may be flashy, empty, bombastic - just what I want in a concerto. I'd rather hear one of these in a concert anytime than have to sit through another dreary reading of the more famous concertos.

[albion]

They may be flashy, empty, bombastic - just what I want in a concerto.

Hear, hear! I would challenge anybody who maintained that there wasn't a life-affirming thrill to be gained from listening to a cascade of almost unplayable notes!

[JimL]

The overt Russian quality of the work is a reflection of Rubinstein's change of heart regarding nationalist music.  Several works from that period (1880 and the years preceding) reflect this strong nationalist flavor, the 2nd Cello Concerto and the Caprice Russe being prime examples.

I think you mean succeeding, John.  And I'm in full agreement.  The 2nd Cello Concerto is also a repertory-worthy work.  I can't say I'm familiar with the 5th Symphony, but now, at least I'm intrigued.  Come to think of it, I could swear I heard most of the finale of the 5th on the radio, and was surprised to find out that the composer was Anton.  I would have thought Lyapunov or another of Balakirev's acolytes (except for the lack of percussion, piccolo, etc).

[Jonathan]

I really must have a listen to my recording and remind myself how this works sounds!

[Pengelli]

I just looked up the old Turnabout LP of the 'Ocean' & found a rather nice page of (very) big colour photographs of the Vox LP. Also the Vox Lp of his Fourth Piano Concerto,plus,Scharwenka,Raff,Goetz,Joachim,Thalberg,Alkan & a nice Moscheles Lp with a risque Klimt painting on the front. All Vox. A nice bit of nostalgia. The website appears to be in Chinese or something,(I'm no expert),but you get the site if you 'google' 'Vox Candide'. (I didn't know Vox did stuff like Stockhausen!!!!) I have no idea which version of the 'Ocean' the Vox recording was.
I liked it anyway! I only wish Chandos would do it!!!!!

[Pengelli]

Incidentally,I definately preferred Rubinstein's Fifth Piano Concerto to a certain other more well known one,but let's not go back on that. Come to think of it,I really DO think it was a mistake selling them.

[Gareth Vaughan]

Am I alone in actually liking The Demon?

[Mark Thomas]

NOo, I'm with you Gareth. It's an imaginative and compelling work which I return to quite often. There's a sort of raw power to the best of Rubinstein's music and The Demon certainly has that. Returning to the Fifth Symphony, I can't say that it has ever made much of an impression on me, but I'll dig it out tomorrow. The one's I go back to are the Second (I don't mind how many movements) and the Sixth, which has a fin de siecle grandeur to it, but maybe that's because they're the two that I listened to again and again in my 20s as they were only ones available on LP?

I promise I'll give the Fifth a listen tomorrow....

[Alan Howe]

I'm listening as I write this to Rubinstein 5, and it is certainly full of arresting ideas in quite a Russian-sounding idiom. However, as with so much of his music, I find that it is merely that - full of arresting ideas, but giving very little impression of organic development. I keep asking myself where the music is actually going and so get bored very quickly. I have tried and tried with so much of his symphonic music, but I encounter the same problem every time; a complete contrast with the music of Raff, for example.
In fact, having got bored with No.5, I've turned to No.6 and - despite (or because of?) the much more conservative idiom, I find a much greater sense of shape and line, not to mention far more fire and drama.

[JimL]

The 2nd Cello Concerto is much superior in that respect, since Rubi dispensed with any attempt at sonata form.  It's simply two ternary movements and a very well-conceived, nearly monothematic rondo (in which the subsidiary ideas are easily traceable as derivatives of the rondo theme).  The first movement is a three-part form, but has a quasi-developmental transitional passage back to the reprise of the A section, followed by a coda, hence making it a more expansive structure befitting a first movement.  Very well-conceived!

[Josh]

I hate to get all speculative, but somehow I feel with his symphonies that Rubinstein was deliberately not playing to his strengths. I can only guess, but I get the impression that he was trying to write symphonies like famous symphonists.  A symphony à la his own PCs #3 or #4, or perhaps in the vein of his under-known Violin Concerto, might have been superb.  Clearly (at least to me) the guy could orchestrate, he could come out with some really fantastic tunes.  But in his symphonies, they strike me as usually well-orchestrated, okay tunes, but I find them so forgettable that I forget them before they're even done playing.

I hate to say this, because based on a few works and his refusal to get ridiculously "nationalistic", I love Rubinstein.  And, as symphonies are my second-favourite musical form (after operas), I want to love his symphonies.  Don't get me wrong, I don't dis like any of them, but despite all my wishing and repeated attempts, I can't even fall in Like with them, much less fall in love.

I don't normally post in threads when I have nothing positive to say - it doesn't help anybody, including me.  But this is different.  When I say I want to love his symphonies, I'm totally sincere.  Are there any passages in #5 that I should check out in detail?  Can someone name a recording and perhaps give specific times on the tracks that I could check out?  Rubinstein is exactly the type of Romantic composer I should love most, so I am willing to put in the effort here.  I made the same effort after a few mildly-positive experiences with Reinecke and now he's one of my favourites!

PS: I actually like Демон quite a bit, though for some reason I feel it's a bit longish for its musical material. I must sheepishly admit to listening only to my favourite numbers from it these days.