Meyerbeer and Verdi

[Alan Howe]

Just been listening to Act 4 of Les Huguenots - boy, did Verdi mine this particular operatic seam! Comments, anyone?

[edurban]

Couldn't agree more.  Without Meyerbeer's 'blessing of the swords' sequence in that act, the Auto-da-fe scene in Don Carlos would be unthinkable.  At least as written.

[Alan Howe]

Oh, good. Thought it was just me!

[Delicious Manager]

I have always held that Verdi was a completely derivative composer. When compared to Wagner and other mid-19th-century composers, Verdi did nothing new at all (apart from, perhaps, Falstaff). I think that, had there been another Italian opera composer active in the period between Rossini/Donizetti and Puccini with a modicum of Wagner's revolutionary vision, we might know a lot less of Verdi. Popular by default?

[Alan Howe]

That's totally unfair - and inaccurate. Who else could have written La Traviata, Il Trovatore, Rigoletto, I Vespri Siciliani, Un Ballo in Maschera, Simon Boccanegra, La Forza del Destino, Don Carlo(s), Aida, Otello and Falstaff, not to mention the Requiem, Four Sacred Pieces and a wonderful String Quartet? Answer: no-one. Of course, he has roots - deep roots - in the music of Donizetti, Bellini, Meyerbeer, etc., but it was Verdi and only Verdi who brought nineteenth century Italian opera to its great peak. If you doubt this, try Act 4 of Aida. There's nothing like it in all music.
Try Karajan's later recording, from approx 2:06:00 to 2:10:30:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlA0xndoTnU&t=7172s

[Delicious Manager]

I have to confess to playing devil's advocate to a certain extent; I was being deliberately provocative (I know, how childish of me!  ).

I do, though, stand by my statement about Verdi being derivative. Yes, there's plenty of lovely music in there, but there's not really anything NEW or startling to my ears (happy for Verdi aficionados to shoot me down). But then, you could say that about JS Bach, couldn't you? 

[Alan Howe]

I totally disagree. Act 4 of Aida and Act 1 of Otello, to take just two examples, are like nothing else in all opera. And I disagree about Bach too - the Mass in B minor would be a prime example. Just because composers build on tradition rather than striking out in revolutionary directions, it doesn't mean that they are derivative. Please try Act 4 of Aida and you'll see what I mean. Donizetti and Bellini didn't get close to this sort of grandness of vision.

[TerraEpon]

I have always held that Verdi was a completely derivative composer. When compared to Wagner and other mid-19th-century composers, Verdi did nothing new at all (apart from, perhaps, Falstaff). I think that, had there been another Italian opera composer active in the period between Rossini/Donizetti and Puccini with a modicum of Wagner's revolutionary vision, we might know a lot less of Verdi. Popular by default?

If you have access to a library with The Teaching Company stuff, I would suggest  you give  a listen to this:
http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/life-and-operas-of-verdi.html

Might change your tune...

[Alan Howe]

A more derivative composer would be someone like Carlos Gomes, although even his operas, at their best, are worthy of revival and have some individuality.

[Alan Howe]

...and even more derivative would be Filippo Marchetti, whose Ruy Blas (Bongiovanni) I am listening to as I type. Although attractive-ish, this by-the-numbers mid-19thC Italian opera with a vengeance. There is very little that is distinctive about it; any comparison with Verdi would be a standing rebuke to the paucity of invention evident in Marchetti's opera.

No: Verdi's the real deal.

[adriano]

I fully agree with your last two postings, Alan :-) I don't know Ruy Blas, shall I try it?
The same could be said on Franchetti... Incidentally, his "Cristoforo Colombo" is quite a bore - perhaps because Bruson sings it like this :-)
And Capitanio's "Pasqua Fiorentina"? Shall we already put both operas in the Versimo shelve?

[Alan Howe]

No, don't bother with Ruy Blas. It's quite well sung in the Bogiovanni recording, but otherwise it's a bore. Franchetti's opera is better, but I wouldn't return to it with any great enthusiasm. I'm not sure how I'd characterise the idiom - I'll have to listen to it again. Of course, he was a pupil of Draeseke!

I don't know Capitanio's opera. I shall investigate...

[Alan Howe]

The Bongiovanni recording of the Capitanio sounds acoustically compromised and indifferently sung, from the excerpts I've heard. Am I wrong?

[adriano]

You are right, Alan :-)
Incidentally, that 1994 Gomes "Guarany" CD with Domingo is quite interesting and well done - I like this post-Verdian thing :-)
I just notice it has been re-released in the Sony "Classical Opera" budget series, together with many other interesting items (LPs/CDs) which had become unavailable since a long time! Of course original issues had thick/lavish booklets with full libretti and translations; now you just get a plot resumé with track indications and a cast list. Bu this series can be considered as important as similar bargain series by DECCA and DGG.
See, for example the first lot:
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/theme/-/tname/Serie_Sony_Opera_House
and then what just came out recently (with original cover art):
https://www.jpc.de/s/1233569_49948?searchtype=cid
For example, I had to wait a long time for the re-release of Ginastera's opera "Bomarzo" (which I like) - a work which was even produced at the Zurich Opera in 1970.