Stöhr, Richard (1874 - 1967) Symphony No.1, Op.18 (1909)

[Alan Howe]

No doubt we'll do that when the recording is released.

My concern, though, is that the hype is already up and running and that it feels like an attempt not merely to position the music but also to 'fix' its stature in advance of anyone listening to it. As I said before, Toccata have 'form' in this regard, as the completely unjustified hype surrounding the release of Tovey's unwiedy Symphony back in 2006 has demonstrated.

If I may suggest it, I believe there is a link here with the 'Dave Hurwitz problem'. The issue, I think, is the danger of the unchallenged opinion of a particular influential person. What's great about UC by contrast is the range of views on all the matters we debate here - and I've certainly had my opinions changed through participation in the discussions that have taken place.

Anyway, all I'm saying about the recording at issue here is that we should be wary of the advertising hype and prepare ourselves for the likelihood that this will be good music comparable with other worthwhile but unhyped compositions released by rival labels.

[terry martyn]

There is, I think, a difference between the type of hype that Toccata seem to indulge in, and the downright falseholds perpetuated by the issuers of the Veit CD, which seem to have resulted in a massive "own goal",to the detriment of Veit's own perfectly decent symphony.

[Paul Mann]

Perhaps against my better judgement, I'd just like to throw the following information into the discussion: while it's true to say that Toccata Classics is owned and run by Martin Anderson it is not necessarily true to say that he only publishes music that matches his personal preferences. Indeed, this is one of the label's strengths.  However, as a long-time member of the Toccata family, I'd say that Martin continually shows himself to be quite the most musical non-musician imaginable, and he redefines the boundaries of what most people would regard as an eclectic taste. Whenever he sends me something he thinks I should take an interest in, he's invariably right. So the blurbs on the CDs aren't "hype", but genuinely what he thinks of the music. Of course he wants you to buy it, but he doesn't say things he doesn't mean. Incidentally, I produced the new editions from which these Stöhr recordings were made and I can vouch for the music. And there's more to come.

[Ilja]

Besides, true "hype" is not something you can just create out of thin air; you may attempt to create it, but the actual "consumers" are the ones who can elevate a hyperbolic statement to a true hype. If the product does not resonate, it's still dead in the water. The Florence Price phenomenon is perhaps a better example of a hype in classical music, since it is being embraced by both programmers and at least part of the audience.

[Mark Thomas]

Thanks for your input, Paul, it's greatly appreciated. Good to know that there's more Stöhr in store!

[Alan Howe]

So the blurbs on the CDs aren't "hype", but genuinely what he thinks of the music.

Well, opinion can easily become hype if one isn't careful. So, as I've mentioned a couple of times, the typical assessment of Toccata's release of Tovey's Symphony was that it just didn't match the opinion printed on the back of the CD - 'a mighty cousin to Elgar's two symphonies'. The comparison was frankly absurd. Here, for example, is a fairly typical summary:

<<Time and other commentators have treated his reputation as a composer less kindly, in spite of Pablo Casals's advocacy. Eric Blom, writing in the late 1940s, thought that "he had unlimited skill and ease, but was too much under the spell of the great masters to pursue an original line", a view echoed by Michael Tilmouth in "New Grove". For Constant Lambert, the first movement of his Cello Concerto "seemed to last nearly as long as my first term at school, though it may have been a little shorter in point of fact.">>
https://www.classicalsource.com/cd/donald-francis-toveys-symphony/

I would much prefer that this sort of hype - for that is precisely what it is - were confined to media other than the CD itself lest it should become, as here, a hostage to fortune and lead inevitably to disappointment and cynicism. I bought the Tovey CD and, well, it wasn't Toccata's finest hour. I might even adduce a certain favourite neologism to describe it...

So, my position is simply that the CD should confine itself to describing the music and leave out the opinion/hype entirely. Oh, and I'm greatly looking forward to the upcoming Stöhr release, but I just have the feeling that the Symphony belongs with the likes of contemporaries such as Volbach, Strässer and Georg Schumann (nothing wrong with that) rather than anyone more exalted; after all we already have Reverie's excellent rendition to help us assess the music:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJg8FWKNnTs

And while we're here, Paul, what about Thierot's symphonies? I know that Martin rates the composer....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSuKduRk_Ic

[eschiss1]

Elgar's 2 symphonies are more contemporary with the 1909 Stöhr than most of Strässer's 6 symphonies or, especially, Schumann's B minor of 2 decades before, fwiw (ah, I see Rêverie did post the whole symphony)

[Alan Howe]

Georg Schumann in F minor: 1905; Ewald Straesser No.1 in G major: 1909; Fritz Volbach in B minor: 1909. That's the context, surely - not Bruckner, Mahler and Schmidt.

[4candles]

Having done some direct, if very sporadic, work for Martin on various Toccata releases over the last 10-15 years - without knowing him nearly as well - I can easily second Paul's comments about Martin and his approach to the music he embraces for his label.

I don't believe Martin's personal preferences and 'prejudices' really figure, even if he is the label's owner. My impression is that, if music is worth recording and circumstances are favourable (eg quality of artistry and recorded sound, and funding for recordings taken care of), then Martin will try to make a recording happen.

The very wide range of classical music styles and eras offered by his labels is testament to his openness. A very high percentage of the recordings he produces are first recordings, as you know, which are therefore being released to the uninitiated. My take is that, as a non-musician, Martin is simply attempting to give those uninitiated an impression, in very few words, of the music they might choose to listen to in a given recording.

This all said, I feel 'hype' and 'opinion' are simply inaccurate terms being used to describe the wording Martin uses on the back of his recordings. Perhaps the Tovey situation is somewhat of a one-off in this regard.

It's important we all have our own views, and healthy debate is a good thing. Let's just hope it doesn't detract from the great work our independent labels are doing in bringing unsung and unknown music to wider consciousness.

[Alan Howe]

Just leave the opinions off the CDs! That's all I'm saying. Position the music by all means. But leave it at that. Otherwise there's the danger of doing another Tovey!

And with regard to the forthcoming CD, apparently we're supposed to check whether we're tapping our feet - honestly, that's as patronising as Tomasz Schafernaker telling me to remember my umbrella tomorrow because it's going to rain!

Bottom line: nobody else does this. Stop it!

[Alan Howe]

I'm still greatly looking forward to this release. But I'll make my own mind up about the music - as indeed we all should.

[John Boyer]

This has been the most brilliant exchange since Plato's Dialogues.  Never has hype been dissected with such perfection, such stunning rhetoric.  Olympus has been attained, Parnassus reached.  It will never be equalled.  Who, after this, would dare resort to unfounded hyperbole?  Who indeed?

[Alan Howe]

Who, after this, would dare resort to unfounded hyperbole?  Who indeed?

Probably me, following my next enthusiasm. Guilty as charged in advance! After all, I think Draeseke's as great as Brahms and that Rufinatscha's B minor and D major symphonies are supreme masterpieces...

[terry martyn]

Returning to Stohr's music, the  extracts depict to my ears a warm autumnal evening in the eaves of the Vienna Woods, perhaps in the company of Reznicek.

Personally, my conservative tastes prefer the Resnicek of Donna Diana to his later compositions, and I suspect that ,if Stohr was already composing in the mid-90s, I might enjoy his earlier works immensely.   Paul Mann, in his alluring post, tempts us with more Stohr to come. I would welcome hearing compositions of his youth.

[Alan Howe]

I don't think he wrote much music in the 1890s, Terry, but I can't find a chronological list of compositions so I can't be certain.