The eclipse of César Franck's Symphony

[Elgar4Ever]

I agree with Alan about his assessment. Barenboim's performance drains all of the life out of this great Symphony. The recording is sadly not recommended.

[Tapiola]

After hearing (and now sticking with the Monteux/Chicago S.O.), I don't have the need to look for other recordings, frankly. That is still the performance to beat after more than 60 years now in my humble opinion.

[Alan Howe]

That is still the performance to beat

Probably correct. But there are other ways of conducting the work (just not Barenboim's!)

[hyperdanny]

Disclaimer: I like my Franck's symphony "Germanic and monumental", probably because I don't love it deeply, so the authentic French way doen't work for me, I find it mawkish.
That said, there's ways to do it and ways not to.
Very interesting (for me) to compare Baremboim's finale with one of my favorites, incidentally with the same orchestra and label, Giulini's.
That also is criticized for being slow and un-French, and actually timings are almost the same.
But in the Giulini I perceive a deep conviction , a rythmic undercurrent that keeps together the whole movement and carries it inexorably to a triumphant finale that's really "final"
I hear nothing of that in Baremboim's, it's very disorganic, and the final bars are underwhelming. 

[Alan Howe]

When the Symphony is done badly, it's usually because it's too drawn-out and unrhythmical. That's where the latest Barenboim release goes wrong. Franck is NOT Bruckner!

[Maury]

I don't love it deeply, so the authentic French way doen't work for me, I find it mawkish.

Are you referring to some perceived French performance style or the actual historical difference in the sonic characteristics of certain French instruments vs Germanic-Austro instruments? The former accentuated timbral differences while the latter favored blend. I have had trouble locating pre WW2 French orchestra performances of the Franck symphony. The earliest I found was Desormiere with the Paris Conservatoire in 1951. The French historical sound was fading quite a bit at this point although there was still a bit of difference that can be heard in the admittedly rough recording. Now of course the Germano Austro manner is widespread.

[eschiss1]

Philippe Gaubert/Orchestre de la Société des Concerts' recording dates from 1928. (There's another Pre- or early-WW2 one that's in neither category, with Koussevitsky conducting the Boston Symphony in this symphony in the early 1940s? on a National Broadcasting Co. LP. From OCLC 47909371 - which if two of the works were from the same concert, would be perhaps from December 1-2 1944, the premiere concert of Bartók's concerto; the Rimsky Coq d'Or selections on the LP might be from another. Koussevitzky performeed all three works- the Franck, Mozart's Idomeneo overture and the Rimsky- very often individually...)

[Maury]

Thanks eschiss for the Gaubert reference. To be clearer the search was only for early (pre WW2) French orchestras for the Franck Sym. They are what Franck would have heard predominantly.I didn't reference any early non French orchestra because they did not have the French orchestral sound. AFAIK only the Russian orchestras sort of backhandedly did but I'm not sure when they crossed over to the polyglot German blended sound current today.

[Alan Howe]

I wonder (a) how close to the traditional French sound Beecham's recording was and (b) whether Munch in Boston and Monteux in Chicago managed to recreate anything of this tradition in their recordings?

Here's Munch with the Paris Conservatoire Orchestra in 1946:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nes9dxaX6Hg   (first movement)
...available as part of this set:
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8773271--the-legacy-of-charles-munch
(Note the overall timing of 34:35 in comparison with Barenboim at 47:07!)

[Maury]

Mr Howe,
 This goes to the question I asked hyperdanny of French performance style vs orchestral sound. Clearly these can go together but are also potentially separable. I don't doubt that at least into the 50s that some non French conductors might have continued a French performance style tradition in the performance of French orchestral music. I do doubt that non French orchestras (other than possibly some Russian (Soviet) orchestras) between 1900 and 1955 used actual French orchestral instruments of that era in any widespread fashion. The difference in sound between French and German orchestras of that era was not subtle. But I don't know what instruments your citations had in their orchestras, particularly in the 1910 - 1930 time period.

[Alan Howe]

I'd guess that Munch's 1946 recording of the Symphony with the Paris Conservatoire Orchestra would be pretty authentic. Dave Hurwitz has talked online about the orchestra in connection with their Beethoven recordings from the 1950s under Carl Schuricht.

[eschiss1]

This is the Gaubert recording from 1928 (French Columbia) of the Franck symphony, on YouTube. (39 minutes.)

[Alan Howe]

Thanks, Eric. Fascinating.

[Maury]

Yes eschiss I listened to the Gaubert already per your recommendation. The strings came through clearly enough but woodwinds were inaudible to me. The performance was interesting though. As for Mr Howe's post, yes the PCO in 1946 would at least have some flavor of the historical French orchestral sound from 1880 -1930 although I think it was already starting to fade post WW2. I was commenting on the Monteux and Munch Boston references.

I don't know how others feel but these French historical recordings of the d minor symphony seem much more exciting to me than the usual suspects of the stereo era.

[Alan Howe]

Speaking purely personally, what really matters to me in this music is athleticism and clear rhythmic articulation. I am less concerned about the authenticity of the orchestra involved.